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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCCMin_68Oct10_Meeting_w/citizensCOUNCIL MEETING OCTOBER 10, 1968 - MEETING WITH CITIZENS REGARDING PROPOSAL TO RE-ORGANIZE FIRE DEPARTMENT Approximate 1 y 100 citizens were present, a s were many members of the volunteer fire department regarding the Village Council=s proposal for reorganization of the Falcon Heights Fire Department. Mayor Warkentien stated that Councilman Ecklund would present the proposal. Mayor asked jthat discussion from citizens present be reserve d until after the full presentation and that each citizen would be limited to speaking twice. He asked that when a; person is speaking, he be allowed to finish without interruption. He then introduced Norman Ecklund who is in charge of public safety, i. e. , police j department and fire department, who made presentation of proposal which is dated ~; October 3, 1968 and includes the background, history, present costs, comparisons, proposal, fire rating classification, costs if change is made, capital improvements, improvement of fire protection service and conclusion. Ecklund stated he would recommend adoption of the changes. Former Mayor Harold G. Nilsen made the following remarks. Inasmuch as his name was mentioned, he wanted to come forward and address the people. He is not used to speaking from the back of the room. Because we are involved in a proposal which affects ev every resident it would be well to go back and recount from the events prior to 1968. In 1955, he first ran in election for councilman. At that time village had a paid full time fire chief. At that time it was decided to have full time firemen and force, and he yeas representative for Fire Department then. Over the years, as we got sanitary sewers (his priority had always been sanitary sewer, waters fire and policed --going over all these years he has never gone to sleep at any time in this community worrying about if he had to call the Fire Dept because we have had a good fire department and good service over the years. Going back to an event which caused him to spend six months one winter drawing up an ordinance,. he thinks it was at that time that the paid firemen had felt .they should, and were, permitted to become members of the volunteer section of the Fire Department. As time went on, they became officers too. Then he introduced an ordinance and Nilsen believes to this day that, although they couldn;t get to more than a page of the ordinance, he thinks that those people today, re-reading that ordinance - it would have been a good thing had it been adopted. He is always thinking of the metropolitan concept. They went down to visit with Chief Oberg of St. Paul, and discussed the matter of contracting with St. Paul and fire problems at great length. St. Paul was faced with problems of its own and were in no p~ sition t~ take us over. Village had to buy their own equipment and start a department. He feels that at some stage of the fame there ought to be a county suburban area fire chief -consolidation of duties for efficiency. When we had Lauderdale, they were paying us, we thought they were getting by very reasonably and we suggested that they pay about $10,000 a year. A study was made by a lot of people who researched on this. As a result of those dis- cussions, Lauderdale decided to go to Minneapolis. Then we approached Roseville because we felt we had capacity to serve more and asked if we could service to Hamline Avenue and to the western limits from highway 36,, Roseville did not want to enter. into such agreement. Over the years, mutual aid agreements have been entered into. That agreement accrued to the village of Roseville and they had something to lean on because their fire incidents were greater. I think the Village of Roseville in a sense became dependent on Falcon Heights as far as fire service. The metropolitan concept gave thought to this again at that time. He appointed two citizens to study where we were going -and ~ at that time he asked Andy Hustrulid and Les Larsen. They met with the Fire Dept. Relief Association and he brought that up thinking about discussing this whole thing. At that time one of the members, Joe Bianchi,. suggested that a member of the volunteer fire department should be on such committee to study in the event the council decided to take further action. No action was taken during that period of time. To summarize these events might have been of interest to the people present. Speaking for ^"~ himself as an individual, the Metropolitan concept is coming. It has to come. With that background he addressed himself to the council with regard to the brochure put out by the League of Women Voters and said: (,1} The cost of other volunteer fire depts. is from $1.33 to $4.50 per resident. I have not been particularly concerned with cost. I think we are concerned with what we get rather than how much money is spent. If the cost is $5 and it is good, then I want it. Classification 6 -we have worked hard to get such a rating. I have gone over to the Bureau of Fire Underwriters and Class 6 in my opinion is as far as you can go, because to get a lower rating the costs to the village are prohibitive. I am concerned - I hope that at no time will we go backward from Class 6 to 7 rating, and (2} efficiency - I am concerned. I address that to the council because as homeowners in the village, the response of the fire department to needs of the people is the concern. The decision is that of the council and I am sure they have given full consideration with respect to these things. Herbert Horton - 1468 W. California -Last night we had a graphic example of the service of our Fire Dept. Mrs. Morrie Rice called at 6t10 p.m. -her husband had a heart attack - 90 seconds the rig was in front of her house -sheriff`s car was there right after - 7-1/2 minutes later they had this man in the emergency room at the hospital. I found out at Miller Hospital they have got 4 minutes to get action, if not by then, there is brain damage. Fire Chief Al Helbig verified this. jorissen - 1419 West Hoyt Avenue -I had cause to call the fire dept. 2-1/2 to 3 weeks ago. I called and they were there in less than three minutes. Could any of you people actually take a truck out, hook it up to a hydrant and make it work? Have you got the time to take training? I volunteered for the Fire Dept. - I am not yet a volunteer fireman. I don"t feel we should get rid of the paid men - I think they are doing a fine job. Including you councilmen - do you think you could do what they can? Gerry Baden -volunteer: I have been on the Fire Dept. for 18 years and there are bout four of us that have been. We previously had our businesses here in Falcon Heights. I think I could probably say that I made 75°!0 of the day calls. I would not say that I could get from that filling station I used to operate, receive the call, get up here, stop my car, check where the fire was to where I am going to go and be out of here in less than ten minutes. This corner (Carp. and Snelling} is a death trap with the signs working -and without the signs working -welll You are mot going to run that stop sign. I might occasionally run a few red lights, but ----. Ingoseville-there has to be a man at the station who is a sleeper -their day time firemen are Carrier Brothers (across the street from fire station} who answer their pho _ne. One of them immediately ran over and got the truck. They have to wait for one or two men before that tr uck leaves the station. That truck sits there 10 - 15 minutes because they have to wait -this is their rule. Another thing -there are only four men in this village during the day tirr~3`- Hermes, Woehrle, Peterson and Luey. Mrs. Ronald Brown -1887 Simpson: If this is not possible (keeping full time men} has Minneapolis been contacted? Ecklund: St. Paul has copied the Minneapolis contract -Lauderdale operates under this fireservice contract. Any calls for the use of their equipment -upon receipt of such calls to their fire department - in the opinion of the fire chief may deem to be adequate -the city reserves the right to retain in the city as many as may be necessary for the proper and adequate protection of the city and which decision only -such personnel and equipment be safely spared from the city. In the event a fire in St. Paul occurs at the same time ~s the:.fire chief may at his discretion recall from any area such equipment and service to use at the St. Paul fire. In case roads are blocked, such equipment and personnel cannot be . furnished with reasonable safety - St. Paul Fire Chief may refuse to answer the call. Jorrisen: For one thing, you are going to give'~the volunteer firemen a raise. I didn't expect money to be a volunteer, and if I have to go for the extra 50~ I am not going for that, if I have to kick out three competent men - I think that is pretty ridiculous. What about the Police Dept. -the cost -what are we paying them now? How much are we actually going to save ? $10 a year. Our rates will go up. Mr. Mayor, you are a paid man and I help pay, I want some answers. (Jorissen was ruled out of order at this point. Ecklund: The proper people and those who classify rates have told us that getting rid of three paid men will not necessarily affect our fire rating. The only real complaint from those people last time was that we did not het for capital improvements. We are not due for a reclassification for a few years.. I feel that the radio system would more than offset the time delay of the firemen answering the call at the station where he has to make one to five calls because he has to call before he leaves the station. Under the new system everyone will be notified immediately instead of waiting for the call. Eventually, all men are called. Wnat is the difference if the rig gets there if there is no man there? Wm. Bye - 1871 Pascal: What guarantee do we have that those men are going to be listening to those radios? At present, we have assurance. Baden: How long has it been since the volunteers first asked for radios? How long ago • was it that the volunteers asked for radios, both for the trucks and for the monitors? I can take that back to about 1952-53-54-55 ? Radio bids from every place in the area so we could have radio and also radio with sheriff department. Here we are going into radios and taking away three paid men. How come now the radios seem so important when before you didn't need radios? Now the cost is well over what it was when we first asked. I can't understand why it is so important now when before it had no bearing on the case at all. Warkentien: Because now they a~~ tran a.stors -then they were tubes. Baden: We have asked for transistors many times. Ecklund said the m~a~on for radios now is that they are trying to provide better service than now exists. James W~iite -I7I6 Albert Street: Falcon Heights has a good Fire Department anal I second Harold Nilsen`s suggestion that we keep our Fire Dept. - Nilsen then said that his suggestion was that we don't go back to the class 7 rating and he did not make a motion. Stan S~~hultz: I am not accustomed to speaking in front of a group but I would like to go over a few of the things. I have been a full time fireman for sixteen years for Falcon Heights. I don't agree with any of the things Ecklund has brought up. Baden explained quite thoroughly as to the efficiency of full time men. I think we respond immediately and I refer back to what can one man do with a rig. One man -three fires I took care of all by myself by being right there immediately - I extinguished fires without calling i8 to 22 men. Farmers Union building -weeds were engulfed in flame at the side of the building. I took a garden hose and put the fire out. I didn't put out a general alarm. Across the street at Robert Hall - a man came across the street to tell me and with extinguisher I ran over there and put out a car fire. A rubbish hauler drove in and with the assistance of the maintenance man we put out the fire from that rubbish truck. I was criticized for running a one man department. I did what I thought was right and I wasn't entitled to criticism. If it was two or three blocks away I would have put out a general alarm -maybe ~he car would be next to a house, I would have no way of knowing when it's further away. I feel the full time men are a good service to the community. We have never taken advantage of anything. We have had sick leave program and Mr. Slama and I have been here 16 years and have never taken sick leave we were not entitled to except when we were in the hospital. I think what you are doing is destroying the protection of the people. My job is immaterial - we are here to serve the people, not just five men. Donald Shannon -1890 Tatum Street. I would agree with these folks who have spoken in favor of putting consideration of service first. The insurance cost -as an insurance agent selling fire insurance in this area north of the Twin Cities for many years, I have found that home owners are very sensitive to the danger of fire in their home and sensitive to the need for adequate service protection. A matter of disturbing the situation such as we have - it seems to be working well -can be a matter of making people quite jittery in regard to their insurance ne~is and so taking your word there will be no change in classification -I have gone over rates a bit and for an average person $20,000 home - probably would carry 80% of insurance -to replacement cost to avoid becoming a co-insuror or having to pay part of the cost -at least $16 , 000. ~ prudent person would carry '"7:; 00 anx~ i~ j3:~mhe~fg~t inc~bas?o~his insurance another $1000 at least and to do so would pay out $2.40 year for extra $1000 of insurance. If he got real jittery and insured to the full value of that $20, 000 then $6 more a year. The reason I bring this out is to show that those of us who live here do value our homes and we are inclined to let things stay as they are as far as the fire department goes. ale Bergstedt -1659 Maple Knoll. I have been here six years only and I am quite conscious of the excellent job the council has done in the past six years and this relates to the men who have served and I want to thank Norm Ecklund for weighing everything in the balance .and coming to reasoned judgment. I would like to point out that figures don't lie, but ~ liars figure. The cost per residence is a poor basis to insure homes. We must multiply our residence cost by 4 in the family. Let's say we have family of 4 and x 4 to come up with true number against other cost that may or may not rise. Something like $21.60 cost per family of 4 per family protection. As I understand it when proposed new system we would have one single number to call for any emergency. Our phone call would go to Ramsey County Sheriff dispatcher so immediately the sheriff's vehicle would be notified. Police vehicle would be notified immediately - is it true the police vehicles have oxygen in them - a police officer would be able to administer oxygen. Ecklund -no rescusitator -for that reason I think we have allowed our .Fire Dept. to make emergency calls where at times they could be handled by sheriff's dept. If county were to call another car in it may be a little longer than we like. We propose to establish a rescue squad, highly trained, to go to emergency calls. The Sheriff is notified sometime after the call comes. And yet I am not so sure if we want to tie up our full time men on this. We do think the quickness of getting the police department to the scene is very important. Dale Bergstedt: On the basis of your answers I am highly in favor of the council's proposal nd we should have a higher level of protection. Mr. Bye: Matter of phone number - we could have the same number that would call both laces -the fire number here could ring at the sheriff's office, too. It would save that xtra number. Ecklund: That would be difficult -county would not appreciate getting all those calls. Nilsen: I think Mr. Shannon made a good presentation. Per capita costs are very misleading. Comparative costs -the two person family to family with six -in paying their cost for school-~11 this works on assessed valuation. Let's all bear that in mind. The fire insurance premium goes up - it isn't for 6 or 4 people. Whatever you do, there is one thing you have to do -you have to tighten up the burning ordinance . I am more worried about people around that do outdoor burning than I am for nights. I have not burned to any degree for a matter of 4 - 5 years. I just do not burn outside. I have remonstrated for lighting fires in "not good" containers. Embers fly over onto our house. You have to worry about that, too. Don Pantzar -vol urteer fireman: I used to live in the village. The only thing I have to say is since this has come up -from the time Ijoined -living right behind the station at the time I woke up from the. siren, truck was already going out the door. Roseville #2 station is right behind my house and time and time again I have heard sirens and it is much later that the truck pulls out. As citizens, we have gone to the Roseville council -their siren goes off and there is always three minutes before we hear the truck come out the door. I have gone with two volunteers that live behind me and have a hill to go up and last winter twoof them parked at the bottom of the hill and walked up. Roseville is thinking strongly of one full time man and a lot of us are pushing this. Last summer we had a dryer fire and by the time the fire dept got there it had already gone up the wall of the house. I know the difference between volunteer now that I live in a village with completely volunteer system. They do have radios -monitors in the house and they get on their way before siren goes off. It is the time getting to that station -especially in the winter that counts. Mrs. Philip Raup -1572 Fulham: I would like to compliment the study of the council but I ~hink the emphasis has been placed on the wrong thing. I think not depreciating the cost, ut increasing the efficiency of the fire department -and if that means having the radio system or increasing the pay, I would not oppose it. The important thing is getting there quickly and I cannot believe that it can be as efficient or as fast if there weren't someone here all the time. Stanley Schultz: I would like to bring out that the majority of the volunteer Fire Dept, is not desirous of this plan -this is something that is being forced upon them. ~A(1) There are pensions here at stake and they will do anything to preserve the pensions. Five to six men are subject to pensions within the next couple years. (2) They definitely will retire if council goes through with this. Fire Dept, had a meeting with about one-third of the people when Mr. Ecklund called meeting with Board of Operational officers. I am assistant chief as well as full time fireman and I did not attend the meeting - I didn't know there was a meeting called. My understanding is that three alternatives were offered: (1) either go strictly volunteer or (2) contract with St. Paul or (3) possibly contract with Roseville. This I got from conversation that took place in the Fire Dept. after chief brought it out. Many men are opposed to sleeping here -they can't sleep here. The understanding is that if he doesn't sleep here he can't be a volunteer. We are throwing good men from out of the community - we are chasing Mr. Pantzar out because he cannot sleep here. Last Tuesday night two of the men you are depending on for daytime said they would retire if this went through. We have four men during the day and during heavy traffic he does not know how it is going to be possible to get through the traffic. Two of the volunteers told me that if this goes into effect they are going to have two sleepers because they are not sure about how to Aerate the trucks, etc. I don't think the proposal is at all in line. This thought has even scared full time men out. If so, where are we going to get help? If you want my job so bad, you can have it. 'S~'es, I do have to moonlight. I would like to read a couple letters from grateful citizens -he read one from Frank Ackermann who used to live in Maple Knoll Drive in Falcon Heights. As far as emergency operation -the men that operate the rescusitator are the full time men -they operate the equipment and they operate the pumps too. G/ Baden: Did you ever hold a tiny baby in your hands ? and give it mouth to mouth respiration -then Ed Webster at the billiard lounge, he didn't make it -but the man on the rig was right there helping to revive him. If this proposal goes through, you won't have a Fire Dept, or a rescue service. Ken Schmidt and a few of us avere there quickly and that good service ~I think he meant at the billiard lounge) is going to be taken away, I ink that's terrible . Al Helbig: I don't think there is any doubt that we have one of the best Fire Departments in the state. This is strictly guess as far as if we went to volunteer - I personally feel that we could have a good department. Of the men I have questioned 50% of them or better are willing to sleep here. I know of the 22 men at least 20 of them can handle the pumper and take it out. The volunteer organization is in the middle here and we took a vote to not get mixed in with the union and the council. If we go to full volunteer I am sure all the volunteers will work as hard to protect the village and the people in it - as well as we can. As far as being trained for first aid, we have some of the best first aid men in this dept. Dachtera, Renchin handling the stuff - we are all trained. Answering night calls, we don'#~ lose athing -day calls we lose a driver. With radio we may lose 1, 2 , 3 minutes getting the rig out. Nomrfcr one call if fireman calls a line that happens to be busy, he has to make another call or two and he has already spent 1 - 2 minutes making phone call before the siren goes off. I think it would work either way. .Personally I am not looking forward to sleeping here. It is hard to say whether we lose much or whether we gain much. I think with radio control we would have more men to the fire faster, then rig would be five minutes slower getting there. It is hard to say which would work best. Ideal situation would be to have man on duty with radios, too -but price wise it is out of the question. As volunteers we are right in the middle. G6NTlN~e~ r Warkentien: The fire call comes in and sometimes takes about 2-1/2 minutes by the time he sets off the alarm. Helbig: All we can guarantee now is one man day time. The present system we can guarantee there will be a driver -under other system we can't guarantee anybody at any one time but over the years, the average has been eight men. Warkentien: Concensus of the men that by having radio emergencies can be handled on a more intelligent basis. Right now if he just hears siren he takes off. With radio, he would know. As far as distance in getting to a fire, Lauderdale is very satisfied. Their fire protection comes from Oak and University near the stadium. Shoreview and Arden Hills get theirs from Lake Johanna Fire Department. We have discussed this these many months and we have -been definitely objective in what could be done -positive rather than negative attitude. We were trying to get something equally as good for about 1/2 the price. Dale Bergstedt: 1615 Maple Knoll - If we were to have a high wind condition as last summer, Mr. Ecklund, what means of communication would more likely be more dependable -telephone or a radio? Ecklund answered "radios -sheriff and Fire Department would have radios . " James Walker -1784 Asbury: I don't know wnything about professional fire system. I can say Falcon Heights is paying four times more. I am considerably reassured by what the Chief has said and I am content to leave the resolution up to the council. Joe Sanderson 1753 Holton: Has this ever been discussed prior to this meeting between the Fire Department and the Council? Warkentien: Mr. Ecklund misses very few Tuesday night meetings with the Fire Dept. Sanderson: The people seem to want something and you folks want something else. . Warkentien: It seems that there is a great degree of sympathy and the people are full of emotion. We are just as interested in having our families protected/. Sanderson: Do you think you are going to get as much for your money? •Warkentien: Yes, we do. Sanderson: Why has it taken so long for you folks to consider getting radio equipment ? How many men do you have that could answer calls at 2; 00 p. m. ? He said it averages eight, and how about at night? Warkentien: First we considered telephones and because of the area, we would have to enter into four major circuits. The radios are portable. When we bring our department up to its authorized strength, it will be sufficient. Sanderson: How about police department? We used to have our own and now sheriff's department. Has the service improved? Are expenses higher now than before? Warkentien: Services are improved and are much higher. Sanderson: Why did we go to the sheriff? Warkentien: We couldn't cover with the help we had. Schultz: The cost was about one-half, too, and provided probably just as good as we are getting now. L. Payin 1363 California Ave.: Do you know what is best for everybody? Why don't you take a vote ? Warkentien: For one thing the people who would vote did not have the opportunity to go into this in depth as we have. Whether you agree or not, we have spent countless hours on this. We have come to this conclusion. We could have passed this without having a hearing. We know we are on the right track. Payin: Quite a few people think you are on the wrong track. You are the servants of the taxpayers. We are telling you now that you are not doing right. Warkentien: I would equally match my judgment with yours. Nilsen: I would like to throw this out as a suggestion. I am concerned about day time service. There are a lot of tough decisions and this is one the council is going to have to make and this goes to the bottom of my heart. You are considering this move - what I would like to recommend is a phasing condition here. I would like to see this move as phasing. When sheriff`s department was brought in there. wa s no need for transition -they could have done with sheriff department, but there is a need for phasing now. The chief prmises to have people nights - I would like to have you give this some consideration. A paid man is eligible to retire -drop to two men -don't hire a third man. Start sleepers at night. We have got to be careful with this situation. I thank this may be too abrupt. Allan McCoid 2202 Folwell Avenue: I would like to repeat and reinforce some of the things that have been said. It seems to be deliberate effort on the part of the council, and I want to commend them. I came here concerned about the efficiency of the proposal and concerned about whether the cost saving is worth the risk of efficiency and worth the risk in our insurance status. The council has reassured us there is no change in the insurance status from full time to volunteer. My suspicion-wouldit provide better service?Q~hat I would urge the council is that they give equal consideration to the members of the community and perhaps that we have a little .more information to the people. ~l\That we have heard tonight is that we lack the information and that our reaction is we are not going to be getting the service we want. I believe the volunteer firemen will give us everything they can, but whether the volunteer fire department as of the first of j~~uary can immediately provide us with the kind of service we have had in the past ...... I would urge you to consider the proposal of full time service to phasing. Al Kraemer 1707 Fairview Ave: As home owner and family man we have lost sight of one view. Our community has expanded - we should gradually phase from volunteer to full professional. The best thing would be paid men plus the radios. To give a little bit more money wouldn't hurt many. What it boils down to is whether you are going to eliminate jobs or not eliminate. There wouldn't be any difference in the cost of this to me. We will never slip to a 10 rating , there are fire hydrants . I do think if the village was 7 or 8 rated - with increased cost of my insurance it will cost me more. Mrs. Herbert Horton 1468 California: I would like to reinforce what this man said - it is ~ar more important to prevent than to give insurance for what is loss, and you add $8500 to your budget this year and provide radios for your present system. Black: There seems to be automatic feeling that our fire rating is going up. They tell me that the change from paid men to volunteers jdoes not automatically raise the rating nor change the rating. There are many other factors -quality of equipment, type -quality and quar~ty of water, type of community. Fire hazards -lot of businesses that produce fire burnables - warehouses, paper manufacturing, using a lot of oil. Those are things that have a real impact on fire rating. There is no one at the Fire Underwriters Bureau that will say rates will go up. They make a contrary statement. Changing from paid men to volunteers does not automatically make rates go up. I am satisfied if we stay just the way we are, our rates are going up (1) we don't offer enough inducement to our volunteers. They are dedicated men but don't think the inducement -the little better pay and much better retirement isn't it worth something? We are in a better position to offer better inducement to volunteers. Plan indicates that we are going to start re cruiting~nuchstronger effort to be made. We think we can. recruit good volunteers and we can train them with the quality of the best we already have in the department. f we stay the way we are, our fire rating is going up and that opinion is more valid than the opinion it may go up if we change. Another thing -money and taxes -sure we want maximum protection. We represent all of you - we also represent hundreds of people who are not here. Maybe some of them are interested in their taxes. One-half mill won't take care of anything . Stan Schultz: I agree with what you stated -it was pretty much what Fire Und. said to me. They took survey in 1963 -we now have aone-million dollar apt, complex with many ves involved. In going over there I find they were under the impression that certain tipulations they made were not carried out by the village. No mention of rates unless certain specifications were met. Different important factors that were brought out. There are a ~.umJ~er of factors that enter into this -if there were survey taken. I tried to find out what ire oss is =compared to other villa es. We are fire loss here. We have been able to Proud of the fact that we have a fiery low get out and knock these fires off. Thez~ won t make Y any commitment about fire classification, but if they made a survey, it would possibly be different. A number of statements are incorrect that were made tonight. About eight men available during day time - I can only count four men -that are within the Village of Falcon Heights. Luey is traveling auditor -what is his availability? Hermes - he works and it costs him money to leave -Ron Peterson, he can`t assure us he will be available 100% of the time. Woehrle, doesn't want to drive equipment at all. There are many factors that are not brought out into the open. If this is for the benefit of the people, I can't see it. Only when the paid men are on duty does it mean eight daytime men. They are even counting one man who is not even a full member of the department yet. Mrs. Schultz: Everyone of these part time men don't have another good paying job -why are they going to take away the jobs of the full time men? Warkentien objected to her bringing this up. Ray Garcia 1906 Prior Avenue: I came down here without any preconceived notion about what was going to happen. I am pretty much aware the crowd is one way. A couple things to think about -we are subjecting our elected representatives and asking them to institute a program for us - we think our program will give us better service. You chose these men. I don't think it is right to get vindictive. I think you should view this impartially. You never make progress unless you are willing to take some chances. Nobody can assess those risks. We are not the first ones - if we take thisstep of operating with strictly volunteer department. We are not that much smarter than the other people in other communities. I think you have got to give them credit. We are fortunate in that we are small. One corner to get through and everyone is worried. Is this going to give us more trouble than in other villages? We elected these fellows and you have got to give them a chance to do it, without cutting them off. Consider it impartially • and look at some of the other villages and then make your decision. Mrs. Horton: What he said is just fine. We have reached this level -the other villages have not come this far. Go forward -buy radios -there is no reason to go backward just because the other communities are there. Mr. Shannon: We are paying out about four times as much per person as some other villages. I don't believethe comparison is a just one. Many of these other villages have higher classification -Shoreview has class 9. The former Mayor pointed out that with the staff that we had some years ago we could have given consideration to Roseville without too much expense. To me that indicates a small village like this is bound to have a higher cost because of the fact that we are providing service having smaller number of people. We do have to maintain a certain size of organization to operate efficiently. Warkentien: We are trying to get our costs in line with adequate fire department. We thought we would blanket in our paid men with the St. Paul Department. We think the village is entitled to more than this . We are, charged with the responsibility of keeping taxes down. We are spending too much from a practical budget matter. I feel keenly on this. I have seen our Fire Dept. work and they are a strange breed of cat. It takes more than a dollar to be one. Mr. Brown 1808 Asbury: If I were a member of the council, I would ask that each citizen ~~ give proper weight to factors involved (1) protection (2) economics (3) personnel, I am in complete sympathy with. Economics -the data available speaks for itself. Protection -someone has spoken out on that fact. Six or seven communities have taken the other approach. Each fact should be given proper weight. Ecklund: One other community -Bloomington -completely volunteer -Fire Department has no sleepers . Warkentien: said that despite the fact that we didn't have ~~ hydrants throughout the whole village = we had a 6 rating. Dale Bergstedt asked Mr. Shannon if he had ,some ratings of other villages and Mr. Shannon • r~ i~ replied some have 7 rating because of lack of water in many areas -but no one seemed to have ratings of other villages . Stan Schultz has survey of Fire Departments in Hennepin County and he read list of seven villages and perhaps there are more. He said we are not discussing just three men - these are communities that have full time people -this is a complete survey and the sizes and the wages also. I don't know if people know about how much we make - it is $585 a month -this is $85 lower a month than the lowest on this survey. I don`t know if this has any value but there are some people in Minneapolis suburban areas that felt full time men were desirable and needed. Warkentien: Mr. Stone has been tax consultant on the Council. Stone: We have been working on the budget and Fire Department assuming that we adopted this we are going to have to increase by 4-1/2 mills - if we drop the idea of going to volunteer and stay on this same basis, the basis of that would raise it about 10 mills. If we do also add another $8500 for radios, we are going to have to increase about 15 mills. This is one of the aspects that hasn't been covered here tonight. Ralph Reed 1485 West Idaho: We lived here before Falcon Heights was a village. We have gone through this. Tell us the comparable base rate between Roseville and Falcon Heights. We all know that we never go into a store today that we don't pay an increase in the cost of living. I don't believe the people who live in Falcon Heights are going to complain too much about increase in their tax base, if they feel they are protecting their homes and their property. We have lived here a long time. We prefer to stay here because we think it is the finest village in this part of the city and we would like to keep it that way. Mrs. Thomas 1710 St. Mary's Avenue: Have any of these surrounding towns ever had full time service and then gone to volunteer service - or is ~ the other way around usually? Ecklund: In the communities - I don't know of any that have had full time service. Mrs. Thomas: Do they know what full time service would give them? If they have never had it, they don't know. There is no way to compare if you have never had it. I am so close to the fire department and curious to know where the fire trucks are going -and I know it is a matter of a few seconds from the time the call comes in to when the truck goes out. Ecklund: You don't know what time the calls come in. Mrs. Thomas: Last night our neighbor had need. I called the fire dept. because I know I will get prompt response. At least ten minutes later the sheriff was there and in another five minutes the dog catcher was there. I know they had to call the sheriff. I cannot believe that someone in Roseville, even if he has a radio, can be down here in less than four minutes . How are you going to have the truck out in that time ? Helbig said Ron Peterson was the closest. Mrs. Thomas: You can't tell me it would take little time. Why don`t we try it and see how fast a man can get here. I hate to give up something that I know for sure for something that I don't know for sure. I know' you know a lot more about it than I, but I wouldn't want my house to catch on fire. Helbig mentioned about the rest of the state and town that have volunteer fire departments . Mrs. Thomas: We are going to save a few measly dollars and somebody in this community is going to be sorry. The personal aspect of it I don't really see how the community can turn away full time employees. Are you going to find other jobs -what are you going to do about this? I wouldn't think this was possible. What do you do? Warkentien: As I understand it with their time off~hey get plenty of time off- i~they moonlight . Mrs. Thomas: What/~you going to do about pensions? Warkentien: The state provides PERA. Employees contribute too. That is the way it is being taken care of -there was no agreement .in the beginning. Mrs. Thomas: Are all these men young men? are you considering the personal part of this at all? I think Mr. Nilsen had a very good idea. They are due something besides just leaving here. The village is sadly remiss. Warkentien: We aren't that heartless. __. _ , jorissen: I don't agree with what is going on. I don't need pay to do volunteer work. Schirrmeister: Do you know that Roseville is going into full time -they are thinking that way right now . Ecklund: I think we have got the best thing with this proposal that we can come up wit It is the best thing that I can come up with. Warkentien called on Schultz who said tuld increase in the 1969 budget.h Hed wised the and since we had our own men and it wo question of how can a 22 man fire dept. be operated for 1/2. -and why should it be done. Right now the village citizens are paYits out of genera taxes.rotection -$61,000 in 1969 plus about $12,000 Ramsey County ge Ecklund: $12, 000 comes out of general county mill taxes and is paid by all communities. This money goes to pay for county jail, sheriffs, court, processors. It does not include anything but some policethintetoldo withphe amount of moneyhwe paytonta ~ontract in here occasionally. It has no g basis. Warkentien: The deal with the shee ffhave asked us toaabsorb the ~ost insbtead of the e of the cost last year. This year th y county. jorissen: Regarding consolidation t the riot wapi n downtown St c Paul t say some house department in this village the nigh was broken into -what would we have done? Ramsey County Deputies were all dawn in St. Paul. Lt. Spencer of Ramsey County Sheriff Dept. said on this night the Falcon Heights car was in Falcon Heights and an extra man was in it. Mrs. Thomas: I still say you are gerngI don'ttthi k you cansho d any of the otherY has had full time and then gone volunte communities as examples -they have not been an example. I feel this 10 mill rate that he stated -is he absolutely sure if we maintain what we have - or what we are right now? What are you going to use the 10 mills for? It certainly is not all for the fire department. Stone: I do not have all the figures -what it would cost us to run on volunteer basis is 4-1/2 mills and if we use the same as it is now, it will go up. Mrs. Thomas: What about the apartments? how much tax do they assume? Warkentien: The cost we have on taxes is about $2500 per unit. We don`t know exactly. James White: If I had a $20, 000 piece of apparatus, I wouln't want an amateur driving it. Dachtera: There have been several statements made as to the efficiency of volunteers. I have been drill instructor for quite a few years -these guys are dependable. I would not say people's lives are in danger when a volunteer is driving a struck. I think they are just as efficient as the paidThen.aid men wuork w th the ooluntee~s in opera ng the a statement like that is wrong . p equipment. Volunteers drive as well as the paid men. Schultz said paid men are always operating resuscitator, the paid men are there with it. Volunteer is just as qualified. Mr. Baden has gotten involved in this conversation and he has saved a few lives as a volunteer. These volunteers are a good group. They are all well trained men. I will put my money on a volunteer as well. Handling of equipment -saving of lives -they are trained well. Schirrmeister: It is not a matter of operating the equipment along - it is a matter of time. Everyt~me the paid men have an argument with the council for the paid 18 years , we say we are not going to get into it. The volunteers have had to go up and fight past battles. We always say we don't want any part of it, and yet we're drawn in. Warkentien then advised people this will be discussed further by the council and no action would be taken tonight.