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HomeMy WebLinkAboutCCMin_68Oct17_SpecialSPECIAL MEETING OF OCTOBER 17, 1968 2798 HEARING ~ HAMLINE AVENUE WATERMAIN REPLACEMENT The special meeting to hear all persons interested in the Proposed Hamline Avenue Watermain Replacement between Larpenteur Avenue and Garden Avenue was called to order at 8;00 P.M. with the following members present: Mayor Warkentien, Councilmen Black, Ecklund and Stone. Absent: Clerk Strandquist. Also present were Attorney Seed and Engineer Lemberg. Mayor Warkentien read Notice of Public Hearing as published and then intro- duced Engineer Lemberg who reviewed his report dated October 17, 1968 regarding the proposed Hamline Avenue Watermain Replacement, A resident called to the Council's attention that the lots are not 125.91 feet as outlined on page 2 of the report but are approximately one.-half that size or 66-•1 /2 :feet . Engineer Lemberg stated it would be to the advantage of the property owners to take steps necessary to have this line installed. If Roseville does it alone at this time, it may cost twice as much to replace the line for Falcon Heights residents at some future date. ~n axis apindh it would be a wise investment to go in with Roseville and install this line on a joint venture. Mr. Rustad - 1723 Hamline Avenue: It is my understanding that $6,67 a front foot is the total cost and this is to be on a 50-50 basis. Lemberg: This is the front footage assessment for our share only. Rustad: My understanding is the $6.67 sounds good but that is to be split with Roseville. Lemberg: Assessable front footage cost is approximately $6,67. Rustad: I thought it was around $6.00 and this for the whole works and would be cut in l/2. I got this from a reliable fellow. Lemberg: The $6.67 is for Falcon Heights residents alone - this includes the hook up. Rustad was of opinion this was doubling up the cost, He stated he got the figures from the St. Paul Water Department. He said the notice was mis- leading and probably wrong - also the 797 feet takes in more than six property owners as engineer had stated. Lemberg: As far as St. Paul giving any cost figures -- they do not include hook-up, repairing streets, inspections, legal and engineering costs. Why they should give out a cost I donut know. They charge their own people $5.50 a front foot and then the city takes care of the street, etc. Warkenti en: We met with Hamblin of the St. Paul Water Department about a year ago and at that time he insisted that the pipe be laid on the Roseville side and our people would be charged $200 in addition to the assessment to hook up. Charles Radefeldt - 1803 Hamline: The 6 inch pipe that is hooked on, what is going to happen to that? Pipkorn - 1757 Hamline Ave.: I would like to ask question of engineer. What makes him think the pipe that is 10 feet below the surface that that is going to deteriorate or freeze some time when we have a cold day? Do you think it could go down 10 feet? Also that is a 3~~ cast iron water main, not galvanized, Lemberg: St. Paul records indicate that is a galvanized pipe on the other side of the street when they tapped into that line. Pipkorn: When the plumber was down there making connections I saw the .connection coming through. Tonkin -- 1709 Hamline Ave.: At the time they put in the sewer they exposed that pipe and it is a galvanized pipe. They broke off my house connec- ion with the drag line so while they were repairing I went down there. The pipe in my opinion is in good shape. You have to 2 799 unscrew the coupling .- the threads in the pipe were in good shape. A little bit rusty on the inside. I contend that if this pipe were left alone in the first place we would still have all the water we wanted. Everything was satisfactory until they started $ampering with it and cutting in a 6" pipe and Roseville connections, We had good service. The pipe was paid for by the property owners as a private line and I can't see where anybody got permission to tap onto it, Warkentien: That is what we told. you people the last time.. Tonkin: I can't see where we are going to derive any benefit. All Roseville wants to do is to get a larger line so they can run a line further out. Why should we be penalized for service that is going to benefit someone else? Lemberg: As far as running it further out, water is all in. This line will not benefit anybody further north - it is looped around Roselawn, Hamline. This will not benefit that property whatsoever.. The only reason we tied it in - we wanted to help the people south of Garden get better pressure. Citizen: That didn't help it. Radefeldt: When you went through the school property, were they assessed there? Answer was yes, it was 100 assessment. Pipkorn: I can't see where we will benefit by pt~.tting in a new line. Is it just to prevent possibility of this line breaking or deteroriating? Answer was yes, partly, and Warkentien said that Roseville will put in their own anyway, even if people don't want to go along with them. Pipkorn: If youlook at the east side of Hamline = how many homes are there? I suppose one day they will build apt. buildings where the pit is. Ernie Toroc -Bisanz Brothers Realty: To answer this question, May I say I sold those properties and some of the owners are here now that bought the lots and I assure you that there will be no apartment building going up. Lemberg: One other thing there is a shortage of hydrants between Larpenteur and Garden at the present time. Corners of Garden and Hamline and also Larpenteur and Hamline not covered for fire protection. Fire Underwriters have asked for maximum of 300 feet between. That is an added protection. Black: In your opinion, Brad, if this present line goes out in the next few years, it would cost double to replace? Lemberg: If Roseville puts it in alone then they would be the only ones to pay for it. Lines have been known to last 50 years and others only last 10 years, I can't say. Warkentien said that Falcon Heights cannot connect to the line if Roseville puts it in because they have bulk water from St, Paul and St, Paul would not allow it. He reviewed action of St. Paul Water Department when Village asked to connect to Roseville water from Snelling and Roselawn Avenues. Radefeldt: Why do these few people have to pay for that line? How about the storm sewer - we had to pay to drain other people's water. Warkentien: Water is assessed by the front foot and storm sewer assessments are on a square footage of your lot. Sidewalk, curb and gutter, water are assessed on a front foot basis. Pipkorn: It seems that people here are $ery much against it. If anyone else is of that opinion let them speak up. I can't see why we should bear the load of a line we already paid for in the first place and then pay for enlarging it just so as to tie in with the laws of today. For years we lived without any fires and never had to be benefited by insurance. They charge us just as much now. 2800 1 L~ Black: If that line should give out I don't know what the village could do for you, Radefeldt: If there is a 6" feed in front of our house for the Fire Department, they shouldn't have any trouble with that. B. Pagenkopf: This is all comparatively new to me -- this private line - and 1697 I am perfectly happy with the water situation as it is like the Hemline rest of them, Mrs. Alshouse When you were explaining the cost per front foot you were giving 1717 Hamline~a. us the cost for Falcon Heights residents .- is it exactly the same as for Roseville residents? Lemberg: We split the cost of the main itself right down the middle - split the cost of engineering, split the cost for boulevard and street repair, legal contingencies, and the cost of hooking up each one of the Falcon Heights residents. Roseville would have the other half plus hook up to their .residents, Question: How much is it going to cost them? Lemberg: Approximately the same .- probably a little more because they have to extend across the street. Alshouse: What are the plans for improving Hemline Avenue? Lemberg: Somewhere between 1970 and 1972. Question: Tf you lay it in the boulevard, that doesn't make any difference does it? Lemberg: It will have to be cut at both places in the street and in the boulevard. so it is affected a little. Rusted: I can't get this quite straight. You have got our cost but you couldn . not know what Roseville's is and yet you talk about a 50-50 split. I got a sneaking hunch that $6.67 is for the Yrhole works. Lemberg: We know Roseville~s share up to the point of their hook up to their lots . If you want that cost , we can get it . Millard: If fire hydrants were installed on the south end, it wouldn't 1771 meet requirements. Hemline: Lemberg: No, because there would be still 800. feet between the two; 300 or x+00 feet each way if put right at the end. of the 6" line. Pipkorn: The watermain now is about three feet inside-the street. That doesn't go into the street. Why should we have to pay for street for Roseville. Lemberg: That is for repairing in the boulevard, When I say street I mean the right of way in the street .- sod, etc. Stone: For the record I would like to have Lemberg call off the names and see if they are for or against. i~ Thatcher: Pagenkopf: Brausen: Tonkin: Alshouse: Rust ad Keran Loehr: Johnson: Wakefield: Pipkorn: advised his brother against not present against not sure .- abstain against it on basis not here not here and he are 100q in favor. from voting of what said here tonight. not present , but against it against against Lemberg asked if there were other questions. Mrs. Wakefield said 2801 know she wants to talk to her attorney and she wants tv~more about it first, as she is confused. Rust ad is going. to verify the cost. Black mentioned that on other jobs the estimates in the-past have been pretty close. Brad Lemberg said St. Paul Department charges $5.50 and then Village of Falcon Heights would have to charge to make repairs for hook ups, and they (St. Paul) would then own the line and Falcon Heights would have nothing to say, St. Paul will not repair it, either. Citizen mentioned the only danger is if there is afire large enough to hook pumpers that it might collapse then. Lemberg said that council talked to most of them one other time and thought the cost was prohibitive and now council thinks it would be about one-half the cost, If Roseville put in their own line and then Falcon Heights citizens wanted it later, the cost would probably be double. Question was if Roseville put in the line they would put in fire hydrants there and Lemberg answered yes he thinks so and thought the following might be interesting.. When there was a request from Hamline:Avenue peflple north of Garden, council approached Roseville and they were completely willing to do this --have people hookonto their-line and council received a letter which told about charges to be made for usage, etc. City of Saint Paul would not allow it, -Hydrants are not shared. Alshouse: How come they would allow it now? -- Answer was that the Village of Falcon Heights is billed directly by St. Paul. Black: I don't know how they allowed those hookups south. of Garden into Falcon Heights line, We sat in with the-Water Department and they said that this had not been.. done. Toroc: on the lath of November Roseville is going to bring this to their Councils attention, I got involved in this matter and I would hope the people of Falcon Heights would really think about this and decidedin favor of it because it will serve many__people. Roseville wants to cooperate to keep. costs down. The lots on Roseville side are 85~ lots and the-assessment is going to be more than $6.67 a front foot, Alshouse: How about other homes that are already hooked up? Lemberg: I think there are three and there are still a couple on pumps, Roroc: Roseville cannot. act until the. decision tonight. This really is the most feasible way to do the fob, Assessment procedures were revie~red with citizens. Black: The need and the cost are. factors. If the. people are sure they would not want it, then we should close the hearing. Warkentien: Would you people like to continue this hearing? General concensus was that it should be continued. Black moved, seconded by Ecklund that this Hearing be continued until Thursday evening, October 21+, 1968 at 8:00 P,M. Ayes: All. Nays: None. -Motion was carried. Application for Application-for variance from Custom Pools Inc.. signed by Troyer Variance -Swim,.~ing had been referred to Planning Commission inasmuch as definition Pool -11+36 West of structure would seem to encompass swimming pools, Planning Larpenteur Ave: Commission report dated October 17 recommended that Village 2802 Council grant request to build a swimming pool at 1436 West Larpenteur Avenue with ;a rear yard setback of eleven feet, -_The,_commission also recommended that the side yaxd,setback on the east side of the lot shall be not less than teen feet? instead of the five feet as shown on them proposed-plan. ~ r1 - ~ ,~ Black moved, second: by Stone that-the variance referred to in previous paragraph be granted. The distance from the rear lot ~ ,-,litre Shall,-be ;no less than eleven,-feet and at least ten feet shall be allowed for each side lot line,.. Tie contractor shall post a ~ performance bond in the amount of the construction costs and completion date of the ~pro~ect shall be no later than December 1 1868. Ayes: All, Nays:l None, Motion was carried, ~ ~torni Sewer Lemberg advised. h~ is meeting with 'efigineers from Roseville to F~a,lcon Wood-s consider the storm sewer in the Falcon-Woods area .- Prior Avenue Area:. ~ , ~ _ ~ c _ Removal of Stone moved that in accordance with Dr. Hard's request _the Trees: ` , trees at 1364 and, 1365_California ~e r-emoved, also tree at ~ ~ 1512 'California (on the Arona Street side) be removed, and ` ' ' that if r~rrners wish to replace trees, they may do so using tree that appears on permitted list of trees, Seconded by Ecklund,, `,Ayest All, Nays: None, ~ Motion was' carrried, St. Pa~u1 Water~_ D r m - - f - ~- Letter dated October l5, 1968 from R, Delany, Plumbing inspector epa t ent - ' Plumber,`; , stated that _con-~ractor~ b~ told by Faleon Heights regarding S ' t. Paul Water Department regulat,ip~s, before they start any part of piping install~atiQn wtYrin a building, Dept. of Labor A true and correct copyofthe decision of the referee filed with and Industry ~- the Workmen's Comp, Commision in the matter of Dewey A. Smith Jr Workmen" _iComp. , . vs, Falcon Heights and-Iowa. National Mutual and Bituminous Commission -- Casualty Corp, and State Treasurer, custodian of the special Dewey Smith: compensation fund was ;received` and file~3.. NSP request to ~ Stone~moved,.seconded ley Black that,, request of NSP Company to install buried install buried electric facilities at the following locations: electric- 5 manholes and 2,150 feet of Duct line on Tatum Street from 400' facilities': - north of Larpenteur to ~Roselawn as per sketch attached, be granted 1`' , Ayes: All: Nays: None. Motion was carried, Minn. Apartrment ~ette~r from Robert-Keller, President Minn. Apartment Association Association: requested that nptification of any proposed changes in zoning , :ordinance or building code be. given them, Fire Depta,rtmentr Jerome Beardsley `r`equested consideration to petitions signed by r- approximately 425 property o~an.ers of Falcon Heights. Petition was headed as follows: "The undersigned owners of property in the Village of Falcon Heights hereby petition the. Village Council of Falcon !,Heights to preserve unchanged its present system of fire ;- protection and protest its presen~C proposals for reorganization of ,~~ _ the Falcon Heights Fire Dapt. on tyre :grounds that such action would be injurious,to property interests, that it would not safeguard the _ public interest, tha~tis an arbitrary and unreasonable exercise of eotincil powers; that the undersigned further respectfully request f that this matter'~e submitted to the citizens of the village for a - 1 ~e~fer!enc~.um emote: ' 2803 Petitions were then received by Mayor Warkentien. Beardsley asked when the council is going to render a decision and he asked the council's indulgence before the proposal to change the structure of the fire department is finalized. He asked the council to give consideration to this petition for a referendum vote. Attorney Seed stated a vote on this proposal would be absolutely impossible. Beardsley said it seemed to him the people who signed this petition are strongly against this proposal. Councilman Black said in part that people elect a council to make certain decisions and asked why the people thought the council would discontinue any department if it is way off base. The rates and tax saving were again discussed, also the daytime coverage and ff adequate with only volunteers. University f~rove Area Alan McCoid, attorney, who lives in University Grove Area Petition: presented petition similar to one above signed by approximately 40 residents and stated the language on above petition dice not represent their view, and so was changed. He Gafd there i serious concern about the welfare of the community, and it was consensus of opinion that maintenance of very highly qualified men and the need for improving the quality of the fire department are the concerns. The people are concerned with the limited funds available and this change might be made at the expense of some risk or delay in providing the kinds of emergency needs as in the past. The petition with the modified language, was received by Mayor Warkentien. Attorney Seed said a referendum would be illegal. He looked at the statutes and said there is no provision for referendum. He did say he did not find any prohibition offering an opportunity to express opinions. Concern of over 400 petitioners shows there is grave concern about this matter. He thinks one of the difficulties has been that people are ill info~rrrled on the problem. He thinks one of the difficulties has been that people have not been able LQ ~~ar the r esults of tests, etc. is McCoid said h~concerned as a citizen that if the council should act now and act to adopt the proposal people would lose faith in actions of the counci ~':. Full explanation of the factors that were considered by the council has not been given the people and if they had been given, the council may find overwhelming approval. We know a vote on this is not binding, 280. but a vote at least could find out feelings of people. Ecklund stated that 21 out of 23 volunteers voted to sleep at the station nights. He stated that on day calls more men are available than the four men as stated prevQUSly. Meeting adjourned at 11:00 P.M. Si ned `: ~~ Vill ge Clerk Approved ,t:(~~~ ~~ u~-~~ Mayor