HomeMy WebLinkAboutCCMin_69Mar6_Public_HearingPUh31.IC H%~sRIdG
STO~iri SIaJJEZ PtOJECT 69-1
l~'~~~CIi 6, 1969
2853
Public IIeai~.nL tras called to order "t 3:00 .i'. ti,rit;h the following mernbe-rs
present: l~a~ror. Z~a.rken-ti en, Clerl- Taylo:c, Councilmen Stone, Black and Lc'.~1und.
lLlso present t,=ere l~ttorne~r Seed ~:.nc~ ;~,r~~'ineej° I.,eraber~;.
:!fin in.f_orm~a.1 r,!eetin~r tra.s held aYnon~ the residents of the proposed area. in the
Villas°e Ha1.1 on the everLi n~ of March. ~', 1969. Thc~ pul~~ose of that ~,,c:.etin~ ?•ra s
"~;o discuss t11e possibility of hooking uy~ to the Stoz~~! Setirer tiritli Ioseville.
The i=azror openod. the rzeeti_n~ bar a.sl:ing; ?.~~'n;ineer Les~ioerg -to present the plans a:ncl
reasons f o,^ this project to the residents present
:~t~ineer. Lerabei•g : ~~nnroxirk~,telJr tt,ro bears ag_.o, -there .•ras c1i scussion wbout a dorm
sez=Ter in th~_s 2.x'ea. .bout a ~rea.r ag'o, -the Vill~~~ e of Roseville
held a public hearing in their area, and cane up ~rj_th a. pla..n to
bene:f it their o~fTn propert~r ozmel~•s. ":t tha.-t t"~n.e, ~.osevilJ_e
st:'~rted their pla.n.~:, :for the project a.nd. ^s}red Falcon Heights
to join. The~T included costs ancZ Flans for t}~.e Falcon heights
area. iJnd.er t'r!e ori45_nal proposal, they tirere "oin` to charge
on a pronortiona.te basis on the area, involved in Falcon I~eiuhts.
This meant that the farther the line gent the more expensive
"th.e cost T~Tould be for the ot~rners n~rho T~rere on -the end of the elan.
The Vi1.1a.e -turned doti~m "this proposal because of the cost and
~Zoseville t~Tas told "that Falcon Hei`;hts tirould consider thi;.~ proposal
if the Write ti:ould come ilithin a reasonable amount. The third
proposal teas ~3~0.00 for each -parcel of land; thus, the Council
loo;~ed into the rna~ter o!' installing the stdrrn sez,re-r a.nd pu"tti ng
the boulevard ba.cb; into shape. Falcon Heights Z7ould pay to
~o,,evi11_e appro~i roately r1~;.,000. This T~rou1_d be th<: charge of
the ottlet line to carry the tla,ter f-roi~ F~a.lcon Hei_~hts to Roseville.
~1'he ~~'er1P_.ra1_. COnSet1SUS Of the lYlfOrl'i1~"1_ meetl?"~ o_f the previous
evon~-~; seeded to favor a. 'Tinircal r?lan.
Leraber~ advi;,ed the residents that the assessment t•otiild be
Yzanc~led in the same rnanne2° as other iY.!p:!~ovements; the Vi"1l_~,ge
na~rin" for the street n,rea and the nropety oti-mers for their
pro~~ert~r. The proposal, as sho~m, and the costs _for the
ulti r!a.te project a.s installed at thi s time is ~c^9, X00. This
is the sst"a:~ted cost -- not cost based on actual bids.
!?t th.i_s poi nt, jurar'centien opened the ?neeti ~ to the residents.
?~~ill Rogers Iaybe j~re could cor~!promise on thiLs and not agree to the full
191;7 ~1ut~,!n: system. Substantial benefit is likely for the property north
of loseJ_ati,m in ~Zose~ril_1_e and by -the Counter zrho cannot upgrade
.~osela~~~n until there is proper drainage. ~s1so, an ~nartment,
co~nplex i s contenrpla:ted at _Zoberts' Pond. brir~_xr~; IZoseville's
tax base un but resulting ";arobabl~r in a denrecitLtion in the
pt°operty in Fo.l_con Heights trhi ch is residen-tia.1.
In ?ghat manner is the present culvert illegal? If the Storrs
Seti:Ter goes in, the !~obert's Compa.n;r must provide a ?ra~r for the z-zater
to drain. `~lso,toberts' Pond is goinL to be assessed as residential.
laybc;, ~Zosevilie could. ,one -them cormrercial a.nd assess there actor. Jingly.
I feel that ~Zoscville and Falcon Iie:ights are scape boats to use for
drainae of the aioberts' Pond so that they can put in anarL}nests.
2 -
Falcon Heights ?•rould have to be the ones to pay the ~11~.2000.
The_re is no benefit to the Village and th i,, ?thole problem ?-ra,s
caused by -the County in building -Rosela?.m avenue. Obviousl`
r
,
,
the nine ton roved proposed. is not for Falcon LIeights
but, for
,
_~oseville' s corm!erci a1 complex. 11n additi opal considerati on is that
the County ?rill pay 100; o.f the center -travel porti on, that is the
center 22 feet. On -the outside, or_ pa,rld_ng lanes, they wi11
pay 2~~ of the cost and 25' of -the cost of the concrete curb
o,nd ~nztter ?~:hich are rerui.red. on this type of project. However,
the remaining 7>~' o_f the parking lanes and curb and gutter
,
together with the catch basins and o~:,her extras, are to be borne
by the abui;ting property o~finers or the municipality, as the case may be,
?bout ten roads are being dropped from the County's long range
plan. I tirould like to Icno?~r ?thy. The recourse is a type of
taxation; therefore, ever~Tone who benefits from it should pay.
The Council can in my estimation pass this improvement. The
point to attack thG~ Council's a.etion ?,could be at the tide of the
adoption of the asses~~ent ro11 ?•rhich requires another hearing
under Minnesota I~a?~r. At this time, the procedure ti~rould be to
~-rotest and object to the assessment, setting forth the legal
.reasons a.nd grounds, and if the Council did not accept the
objection, then a.n appeal can be made to the l7i strict Court
of Ramsey County at that tire.
Falcon heights could reasonably deny this project. I think that
the best ?~r~~r to approach this thin; ?.could be to have a continuance
of the matter and h^.ve a meeting ?~rith the County Enineers, so that
?-re could a17. be fully apprised of the plans of the County and. the
plans of Roseville.
Tlayor TTarkentien: Roseville is going tirhether ?•re go or not and they are losing by
including Falcon Heights for ~1L~,000.UO. 'v1e have never been
assessed far County roads. (He cited Larpenteur, Rosela?-m and
Garden as ex<.znples.) Roseville ha.s to get the pipes in for the
Fairvie?~r and 36 interch~.nge before the overpass goes through.
Engineer ±,ernbe-rg: Roseville has the bids and the contractor is ready to begin.
If ?ae are not going to be included, then they are going to cut
do?~m the size of the pipes to acconti,_odate their people only.
~~egarding the culvert - ?re moonlighted a.nd put it in ourselves
tiiithout a pex:mit from the County, The County can .remove tlz^.t
culvert. If they fill the property on the ~Zoseville side i-t won't
have a ditch to floti~r into. The County has to date paid f'or all
drainage ?~~~ithin its right of ?-Tay and has paid all its share of
~:oseJ_awn, Garden and Harnline Avenues. The procedure for drainage
districts has boon established for a convenience to assess ratter
than tx~r ~to establish the exact crainage.
IZayor ~°Ia.r'Lentien: If ?.re did postpone this fora ?~ree1~,?Tould it be too long?
engineer Lemberg: I art! sure that they ?-could ?-raft. ti~~e have un opportunity, hotirever.,
to take care of this area,, ti~1e have a, moral obligation because
the ?rater does come fror~? Falcon Heights.
?~;a.yor tiJU.rkentien: ti~7e could discuss this ?:pith less tension tonight if ?=re did not make
a decision tonight. ti•Te have the same situation in the NF section
in reverse. ?~Je oversized our pines for Roseville so that the ?,rater
could flo?•r into the Lodi rey pit .
l~~r . 1~icCleery
1918 Autumn
Engineer Lembe
Isn't ~o:seville required to lay storm se?~rer for our ?-later so it
can eventually be h^ndled if it drains into their area?
ZTO, the~r a.re not.
2855
Mr. McCleery: This is a very small water shed. Why so many outlets and
sewers to drain this little area?
Engineer Lemberg: Roseville is bringing in 1~2" to 1511 pipes. We are only proposing
a main of 1211 for Autumn. If we agree to go in with them, they
must increase their pipes one size. If we don't they can't
handle us later. They are paying for their own; if we don't go,
we won't be included for future use.
Mr. McCleery: Would the small water shed be able to be handled by the minimum?
Engineer Lemberg: It depends on how fast your water is draining.
Mr. McCleery: As far as me as a property owner, my land is high and I have not
and don't expect to have floods. I don't mind paying a small
portion but not the full assessment.
Engineer Lemberg: Once every 1~0 years we could have a storm to back up water
to stop drainage in Roseville's pipes. However, in the last
five years, we have had five such storms.
Ecklund: I think we must make it clear that the ~1Ja,,000 is to pay for our
share in the Roseville area, anything above we would have to
contract as a Village. If we only talk about storm sewers along
Roselawn, we are talking about something less than the $15,500.
Engineer Lemberg: Adding lots would not necessarily cut the cost because Roseville
would still charge $350 per lot.
Mr. Stowe It is my understanding that this is a potential problem only
1951 Autumn: once every 1~0 years. Plus the fact that the storm sewer on
Roselawn is really a preliminary to being a 1~8 foot highway
to serve the Rosedale Shopping Area. This seems to be a first
step and this is where we should stop it. This, in my viewpoint,
would be a depreciatioon in property along this area.
I commend the Council for looking after the interests of the
owners and for getting the price in soaaesvhat more reasonable Line.
We really need a lot more time to see dust what is involved i.n
the upgrading of Roselawn Avenue. I would like to suggest that we
look into individual costs of sewer lines. All of us have a lot
of things we would 1i.ke to spend $600 on and i.f we are being asked
to spend it on something like this, we should have ample time to
look into it.
Engineer Lemberg: As a matter of information, the County has a schedule of upgrading
for the whole County. We have known about this since 1960. Roselawa
Avenue has been on this schedule since Highway 280 was built. We
still don't know when it is going to be done. It was on the
schedule long before the Rosedale Center was decided to be put in.
We know about the major thoroughfare planned by the Metropolitan
Planning Commission, but we don't know where it will be located.
There has been a considerable amount of st~edy and I have met with
these people on behalf of Falcon Heights. All this has been
discussed. The State and County have hired a Traffic Engineer
from Chicago and they are preparing a study on where this North-South
Route should go. They are supposed to be uabiased because they
are from out of town. It is something we know is going to happen.
The County is not pushing us to improve Roselawn Avenue.
' 2856
~'esident: I have talked to ::~amsey Planning People. One of their priorities
is 1?oselazm Avenue fora !~8 foot roa.u.. As far a.s the local
neighborhood is concerned, z.re trould prefer to have the street
stay residential. This z•rould seem to be a necessar,,T first step
for the County to improve the road. Perhaps t~re should consider
this verjT thoroughlT.
. ~
i%ayor l.darkentien: Do you .feel that putting this project in trould hasten this
Count~,~ project?
En€ineer Lemberg: Yes. But, =!1.oseda.le has certainly hastened this project.
I~T-r. Ha..rd T.-,'hen you begin to introduce these foreign elements, then thi s
1937 Autumn: will bring all the other undesireable elements calling for a
higher degree of police protection, maintenance, etc. and it isn't
going to improve our neighborhoods any. It's no secret that this
area is the only free neighborhood left tirest of Snelling. If tre
have this sort of traffic pattern, nobody is going to be able
to sell -their homes because nobody- t~ri11 tran-t children to groz•r up there.
Ecl;lund: I t~ronde-r t~?hat t~rould. be the result of never impz°ovirzg Roselat-m
and this type of traffic happened an~n~ray. The road couldn't
handle i~t.
11r. Hard: If t~re are going to have cuality of environrzent, then tire can not
have high density traffic.
Mayor ZJark_entien: If ire t~ra.it five or ten ye~?.rs the price could double. Some day
tire mar have to do this at a higher price. The people south tirould
refuse to pa~T because the i-,rater irould not be theirs.
I~yrle Peterson Can they legal-ly cut off' our dr~.ina.ge area?
19 7'.! Auturzn
tirarkentien: tiTe probably cannot stop them; but, b~T the tune it goes across
the roads, it trill also be in the 3rards.
lTr. Rust If the Council voted `'no", there must be seine agreement by the
192?_ Autumn: County Engineers and ~osevil7_e.
Engineer Lemberg : The County has t~TOrked t.Tith I~.oseville and has agreed to pay their
sYiare of thi-s.
I'r. Rust : The County t~rouldn't allot~r the pipes to be put in unless it could
take care of the future needs of Roselatm.
Engineer Lerzberg; As ~Te have said, they are going to go ahead. Frith the project. The
system ha.s been designed trithout our use to take care of the t,7a.ter
that comes out of the right of t-ray. If ttiTe trant to, at some later
day, the pipes t-Toni provide curb and gutter run off and the
rer~airements for this a.re catch 'oa.sins. Z~Je tron't ,stop the
project if t-re don't Uo along t~rith 'toseville.
lla~ror ?arkentien: Do tre t•,ant to pay ~>1Z~,000 to ~~oseville to er_large their pipes
.for insurance for -the .future? ~Te should forget our own costs
for the moment. I don't tTant to tell vrou people t~That to do, but
I feel that it is a trortht-rhile deal.
I`r. 1icCleer~r: I have the feeling that I~osevill.e has to design their pipes to
handle the uptrard ~ra:ter shed s.nytra~T. tilhy are tiTe tiTOrr,,>zrzt; then?
'~ r_ineer Lemberg
It is based on run off features and land. The cost of constz°zzction
also goes up. If the Wipe sire increases, so the sise of the ditch
~.nd so on.
I'~r. Kimmedahl ~~le are talking about .350 for z-rater drainage. I don't think
1810 ~oselat•rn: this is suite fair either.
engineer Lemberg: This would be assessed for the North District and not the
Wit. ~.nthony District later.
285?
Iiayor Z.:a.rkentien: 1t a meeting Z~rith the off_icia.ls for St. ~nthony, they felt that
the i~r.oject would be dons t~~ithin five ~rea.r,. Unless tire have a
dra.stic~-.change in economy, if JTOU should defer not~r, you may be
sorz~r t~rhen the price comes up later.
I~'r. Stump Do I hwve the correct impression as to zrhether we do or do not that
1957 Autumn catch basins ti•ril]_ be put in at P.oselati•m and Tatum? So that if tee
did have drainage, it will carry on dotirn and YLoseville z•rill_ accept
this tirater? ~~Te ha.ve less problems frith the hater in the streets
after rains than Downtown St. Paul.
It, also, appears that ti•re have legal questions raised Vrh ich have
not been ansti•aered.
Attorney Seed.: tie~;a.rding the method. assessment, historically, the Couxt has been
~Ttremely lenient on the method of assessment. Put in the actual
application of theox~r, there is no cyues-tior? that ar~r attempt to
caestion. -the constitutionalit;r of: this method t•rould be unsuccessful.
I don't tiran-l; to pass juclz,Inent, but I don't thin'r there is any legal
pro'olem re~;a-rdint; '~k~e cu7_vert .
Pie. Finegan, J:c. Doesn't thc>> Count;; have an oblig^.tion. to nla.ce the grade at such a
19~~.8 Ii,os~l~T;m: level that it z•rould not be an unx~sonable upgrade to drain? Can
they just fi1.1- a,nc7. cut off the normal f1.oti~r na-i.tern through an
-
• irrprovernent of ~oselaZ~~n.?
I_ayor I~'a.rkentic.n: Thoy destro~Tecl the drainage at _'~1_bert tiJhen they put in Larpenteur.
~c?~lund-: It seems to r:c; that ther€: i .s a. different tone than last eveni
~•
If tee are pretty sure that the Count~T ZriJ_1 install. catch basins
on the south sid-e of ~~oselati~m unti 1 that street is up~ra.dcd,
what kind o:f problem do z-re have?
Txr, iIard: I ~:a,s told that under ~ose1_a~7n on Tatum, there is a culinert
th~.t is buried. This is suppose to be a legal one. ThP p~,tcerr_
lzas been sc;-L to go along that point.
i'a.yor l7a.rkentien: As far as cutting off the Crater, tire a17.. .recall the time t-Then the
University Zras denied the right to drain the ti:Ta_ter through the
Tidl~~nd Hil7_s Golf Course.
rcklund: Could Jrou tell us ti~rhere uTou got your ir_forma-'ci on about the
buried. culvert;?'
ir. Ila.rd: Curt Larson
Attorne~r Seed.: ~.~hetller or not this culvert is legal as a practical ra.atter is
irrelevant .
Clerk Ta.;,rlor: Z7zat are Zre going to gain by dela Jan;: it a ?aee'c?
rc.l.und.: Once they fill the pro-?erty across the ~o~.d, the culvert is no good.
I uo.z't think that i-c~ is a m^:t,te~ of our concern as to zrhat ~o;~evi 11e
does t~~ith that proy erty. Z'I:o.t' s going to harr~en z?hen rLosev lle puts
in the stoma sej.rer and z~rhen the Caunty upg~ra.des _toselatim?
Iiayor Tarkentien: :Doan .n'_~.lin rn~.lces recoru:~endG~:-tion~> to the County Board but ?rizen they
a,ccevt thee? no one knot-s. This might be done fo-r 5 or 10 Nears.
2858
T'r. F'inege-n: ghat is the majo~° concern? Is it the ~13~0.00 per lot?
p.?ayor k,'~~ri:entien: The people don't feel the neec}. for the t~rhole project.
T-r5 Ja.rl ?•-:hen i?osevill e goes ahead z~11.. -their catch bs,sins onl;T be on the
193L~ Autumn: north side? If a.nd ~rhen ~~~osel~.t~:n is upgraded and they are on both
sides tii11 it catch the z•;a,ter iri .frgnt of ~Luddis house?
})nzrineer Le~~:)ber~~: Yes, but it trill defend on the design the County puts in.
I`ayor Zarlcentic;n: I have a letter from. r1r, 'udd dated. Ifa,rch !;, 1969 stating that
^ince -installation of drainpipes about four yca.rs he ha.s not
experienced any trouble. Dec-.use o:f -this, he ~rould be opposed
-co participation in this project as lord ~,s the drainage is
not interferred t~rith. i~ir. Rudd did not ',~cnotr that the plan
~~ro~z7..c1 be tampered frith and k~'arkentien ti~rondered zrhat his opinion
ti-rould be novT.
~'esident: Does it appear that t•:-e are considering tti~ro possibilities -either
no la.n or a lir<ited plan?
~~cklund: F?o SupT~ort ho.s been received for ?:-hole plan. P?o 1_ines t<rould
~.~.:n~,lon~; Autumn ~„~d-cr -iho ~,~oci. eie,? ~~is.n.
__~;.~ O' i'~ar,;.ent7_en: I:i: the I"lOCt1f1CC~. S~F~1-'! ?7012Z,~. bF; ~:)ut 1n, tr1E' ~20'~1C COL11Ci SC'e
hoz~; it tror..ed and could cornr;,i.'; -themsel~Tes l~~ter for the lines
on Auturin.
1_'.n~i~eer Ler~ioerg•: ~~.oseville is absorbing; the costs in excess of ~3>0 up to -L-he
actua.~_ cost of : ~l, 200 .
it . Fine-~a.n : kte ti-rant our ca:e and eat i t too because T,~re don't '_~no~;r that
v leveliko,:~el-,tin is goi-t-~; to lie ,~~rhen Tinished.
Tngineer Lemberg : Z:~e t~rould have to fight that level of _~'oselat~rn.
ir. kiar0021 In a Z°'ee',S 't7~i7e ~TOU COUld. have y0u:[' _),tt07'T1E;~T VerJ_:~+'y SOme thingS
197 _lutuc~n; and fine+_ out t~rh~~t can be done froi~~ the Count~T Engineers.
Ec'--~ and : I move that the '_nearin~ on -the Stoi;~1 Sez~rer Project be continued
to ':arc}~ 13th at 3:00 in ~.,he Villa;e IIalJ_. Upon a vote beinC
ta'~=er. the :FO110?-~_n` VOted. fOi~ Same: Z`ar}ienti en, Ta~rlor, Ctone
Blac'. and :=,c'clunr~.. The notion ?ra.s dec7_a,red passed.
>treet ~~i ins: L~'lilk?er o S'f?,teCi "`i}7.%?.t 1.t z'70u1d COSt c ~~)rOliS,t2..tely til. j0 T"!OT'e ?der
si~~n to have the bloc'c nur~aers Y~'inted on. The Council did not
feel tha-; this tras necesss.~ ~%. The siwns ;~rilJ_ be scotch lip°hted
and cs.n be done in a variet;;r of colors. The Council can set it
u;~ so th~.t the succes "ti~l 1)~_cacie.~^ Sub~a7_ts col-or s~W~:~.ples to choose frog.
Fa.1_con Oil ~^~t-torne-~ Seed :^_cviseci -i;h~:.t Tr. ~~c}e7~;~an is ~oin~- to resu'aro.it
C~.r ~`a~?.sh: ~~. cond.tiona.l use ~~e~miit for ~. c' ~.r tira.sh on FIar~l~_ne a.nd I~arnenteur.
_^_;~l-i cation fOr EC}>ltlnd T,lOVBCi 'th'1t the a~?'~11C~?ti011 J:O:L' ~). Cigarette li CGn s° ~~r011
Ciaret-ce ~i_cenc~e the Pizza I~tzt o.`' Falcon Iieir~hts, Inc., 16x0 k1. Snelling, be
f.i0~! P1rv7~C,. i~llt; ~1;!~~bOVnd. TU,~?'lOr SOCOndGd t}le 7?totiOn. i-10'i,"!On i')aSSG'd U.Ilan1r10USl~r.
Council- Salary Attorney read Ordinance 86 ~~~hich increases the Mayor and Counril ~ s
Increase: salaries effective Janua,r~r 1, 1970. The ordinance will be
?~ubli shed -larch 12 , 1969 .
1
Lindig Property: The Lindig Property has been sold. and the State Ulelfare Department
has to approve the final sale. The Attorney advised that the Council
should not object to the sale unless the Village is prepared to buy
the property.
One of the owners has applied for a. building permit to fix the
house. The Building Inspector has reported that the house can
be .f_ixed. Black advised that the owner should ask to be included
on the agenda for the next meeting to ask for a building permit.
The 1ttorney advised the Council that if they want the property,
they have to take it or issue a building permit to the owner.
1
1
Adjournment : The spec ia1 meeting t~Tas adjourned at approximately 11:15 P.M.
Signed
!approve ~~• _ ...._`._,w_