HomeMy WebLinkAboutPCMin_82Jan4_Public HearingMINUTES OF THE JANUARY 4, 1982 PLANNING
CONfl~1ISSI0N MEFI'ING/PUBLIC HEARING
Al Stefhnson, Chairman, called the meeting to order. He explained the reason
for the Public Hearing--the property (formerly called Rose Hill Nursery site).
He read the published notice for the Public Hearing and laid some ground rules
for speaking at the hearing, by those in attendance.
Al read a letter from the 1st Bank of Minneapolis to Don Swendra aka American
Shelter Corp., staffing they were in accord with a PLTD for this property, and
Mr. Swendra has permission of the Bank to purchase property.
Format: Harold Westin, City Consultants, i. e., Carl Dale, Brad Lanberg, Jerry.
Swanson and Dewan Barnes. Then it will be open to the public and if there is
a spokesperson for an area, they would speak before individuals.
HAROLL 1~;5TTN: Architects and En ,ineers,-hand
g' gave a brief history of his business..
He sees in t is project an opportunity to put into practice advanced technology,
especially in energy sufficiency. His role and that of his firm is as designers.
He understands that negotiations with the_,City are miles apart in terms. Unless
there can be some agreement reached, PUD would not go ahead nor would this project.
However, if PUD is acceptable on its merits to the Planning Commission, it could
go forward. They are looking for the highest and best use for the project and
this piece of property. Some problems and solutions are as follows:
Traffic Patterns - Site is 30.84 ages and there will be proposed numbers
of dwelling units of 199 or 9.29 units per acre (11 single family, 5b ,townhouse knits,
. and 120 condo (He presented a map of anticipated traffic flow.)
units .
Units - Housing commission will handle all problems within the project
and this twill be set-up, obviously, after occupancy. This will deal with maintenance,
upkeep, etc. The units will sell for $1000.00+ and they have changed, sanewhat,
their anticipated pattern, with single family dwellings acting as a buffer to the
entire project, on the northern border. The project then proceeds to townhouses and
condominiums, plus an anticipated (tho unknown occupancy) commercial area. (Showed sketches)
Storm water - The existing situation is that water now flows fran-Falcon Woods and
this area East across Tatum then North of Lindig to ponding area. They can make an
advantage out of a disadvantage, with the way in which the project is laid out, by
Making the wirer fr~~rn this prujec:t anti keep it on the site and percolate it in the
holding ponds.
Summary - No change in zoning on the 'north. and would request cortmiercial
zoning for the strip of commercial and det~e]_opment of the plan is yet unknown,
but they would follow the plan as set out currently. In the final .analysis, they
are proposing a project that will. have a goad use of the property, high value of
the land and a low impact on all points, except for the traffic going north. He
proposed PUD, and with thoughtful discussion there can be same solution to those
problems raised between American Skelter and the City, and can be resolved.
They will have calculations supporting all the data he has given when they come
back again.
CARL DALE' - City Planner (letter submitted)r. Generally, the concept of the plan,
tie-new one is good. He particularly liked a couple of features, such as adding
single family dwellings on the north. The density planned on the total number of
units is generally a little more imnaginative than what the prior plan had shown.
Traffic has been altered producing another way but I would suggest that it is
fairly good. All setbacks road dimension', parking areas in general, are seemingly
adequate, but they need more in detailed develo~nent. They need to come in with
more adequate plans. They have extended sidewalks throughout the area and.. show proper
access to the City park. He assumed that the traffic patterns will be provided
later. Many of the ordinance requirements were not fulfilled until 7:00 o'clock tonight.
Obviously he hadn't had a chance to look apt-sane of the things. I think this could
be a very fine development and is a great change over the first plan we looked at.
He wished to note that if this general plan is approved by the Planning Commission
of the City and the City Council, construction would still be subject to detailed
plans done in stages and would probably take several years. Strict adherence to the
ordinance will have to take into consideration staging of develo~ent, rather than
detailed construction for the whole project, but rather in stages. Sane things
might change. Basically, the changes are good, particularly the one-family units.
He assumed the cannercial portion of the plan is still in the drawing stage as it
seemed a little out of proportion than the way it should be developed. He didn't
agree in the split zoning, as Mr. Westin had suggested, but Carl Dale suggested
fiat it cli L'e iL~. T~;ese urL all hi~hl~~ r_elatecS :?PVPI.nr~m_.cnt;~ gnr'1 ~r.n'Y rJaally
require separate zoning. He assumed that all streets, all utilities, would be dedicated
to the City, which is the normal procedure. Or,e thi~~g that should be looked at is
the curve in the road and some areas are located on that curve. Probably should be
changed. Another access is also on a curve and perhaps these could be corrected.
There should be sane indiciation given as how the project is going to be done and
then sold, as it is a rather complex situation. Ordinance requires how open space
is to be utilized, how the grounds acre maintained, prior to approval of any plan.
What happens if a water main breat~s, ~~`foadway breaks up, if the homeowners association
doesn't do those things necessary. If the City doesn't have something in writing
it might be a problem .and they should have sanething (in writing) to be filed with
thec9eed to the land. Haa is the area to be~subdivided? Many other conditions he .
felt should be addressed. Need a contract between the City and whanever builds as
to how the roads are to be put in, and the money involved in construction, etc.
We have a general. plan concept, but perhaps the City Attorney should give an opinion
if the hearing should continue, in that there has been insufficient time to look over
many of those plans submitted at this late date.
_JERRY SWANSON - Stated the provisions of the Ordinance':'
Preliminary Plat - filed? (no) (Street right of way, lay out, etc., needed.)
2. Copy of detailed land use, pooling, open spaces, common areas, etc. and
1" = 30' scale required (we have 1"-50' scale, but all other information ).
3. Model of the project, pictures of. area (yes)
~F. L1 ;rE'.~ll~f:llt:s ~~~C'l.''~J1S:.CJ1?S T arr}-a ~ ~~ ai~~n i iT ~ ^ ?lr~lt"PC'fil[1Ti
.t , , Cl7tt'i?L._....:, ~' ~rii~I.,~.,,..c., t) eriil~ ..'^~.. at~c1
of project (no)
5. Schedule of estimated progress of units (no) (Harold W. says it will be
forthcoming) We need a written copy. (Harold W. says it will take 3 years)
6. Topography map showing existing areas (just presented 1/4/82 at 7 p.m.)
He stated also that: (1) enough of area to demonstrate plan -yes; (2) property uses,
for each area -yes;.(3) Topographu and property final grades -yes, tonight; (4)
tree cover, site improvements, etc. -yes; (5) Property access, public and private
streets -yes; (6) Public uses, schools, parks, etc., -yes; (7) Architectural style
of each building -.yes; ALSO, a written document including schedule of progress of
units -yes.' Mr. Swanson recommended a continuance of this Public Hearing until such
time as all the above are submitted and have time to review said documents.
It is unnecessary to republish notice, as long as it is announced (date and time) and
stated at this hearing--that is considered proper notice.
Meeting/Public Hearing Planning Commission 1/4/82 (3)
Mr. Swanson recommended that the hearing be continued to Friday, January 8th, providing
. a' items necessary are on file at that time. In that way the Council could continue
with the plans for a Public Hearing the 20th of January. If it were at a later date,
the City would then be required to reset their public hearing, in the same fashion
is could be done tonight, with convening and then resetting and giving public notice.
Jerr Wallin asked if it was correct that the l0 day advance published notice given,
an t e i ing of the requirements of less than l0 day advance notice, be sufficient
with public notice, with all papers properly filed, and all members of the Planning
Commission having ample time to review those documents? Jerry Swanson didn't feel
it was necessary to have the 10 day advance notice.
BEAD LENIBERG - Insufficient time to review the plan and all submitted papers,
rawings, etc. He was .pretty much in agreement with Carl Dale; however, he did
recommend that at such time as the final agre~nents were drawn up that street
right of u~avc r~~i:1J. crow access and also include water :.vain and sewer lines aild
would require sane additional right of ways on documents for maintenance. Easements
should be a part of the final agreement. Need to provide fire protection to sane
of the buildings and need to loop the water lines and these will all be part of the
final agreement. He felt that Friday, January 8th would be insufficient time to
review and Carl Dale concurred. (Jim Borquin asked a question regarding this time.)
Need to review the sanitary sewer needs, fire main needs, have everything laid out,
hydrants, and Friday would make it a little tight (on their part)..
There was sane discussion among the members of the commission and the City attorney
as to when the meeting could be rescheduled. No one wanted to rush through the review
necessary, and the 8th might make it too rushed. Jerry Wallin stated that it was well-
. known that there were a large number of residents who wished to have some statements
made regarding this project and it should not be scheduled too soon, that they would
have an opportunity to view the documents, as well. as the commission and he didn't
feel comfortable sitting up there trying to make judgments and digest all the infor-
mation produced, without sufficient time to makejtxlgments..intelligently.
DEWAN BARNES - Concerned about the fact that the plans do not show the area that
we are intending for the new City Hall/Fire Station/Public Works building. He
would like to see the plans do so, extending down farther toward Larpenteur Ave.
and include that area of land, as taell. (Harold N. requested that this be done,
especially the area of.Hewlett-Packard and its traffic outlet and this will have.
quite sorze impact on fihe area.)
Dewan gave some facts and figures pertaining to the project. Market value is
estimated at 26 million, for the total project. divided by the apartment evaluation
assessment = 36% or 9 million + added to City assessed value '(using the 1980 figures)
and the 1980 mill rate (14.296) would realize annually 133,810.56 OR ~not~nts to
20.206% of budget OR 35.62% of actual levy. 623 School district would realize
$389,422.80 and Ramsey County - $241,029.36 for a total tax of $764,262.72. It would
amount to over 1/3rd of the le~,y (ap roximately). with 2,983' of streets @$70.00
per foot for street construction OR p$208,810.00 (bonding cost) and at $45.00 per foot
for water (x 2 because water needs to be looped around buildings) $268,470.00; and
$45.00 per foot for sanitary sewer =$134,235.00, plus 15% for engineering fees, legal
fees, administration costs it would equal $91,727.. or a total of $703,242.00.
Split over a 15 year bond = $703,242.00 there could be a saving of approximately 20 million
to the developer if he went with Industrial Revenue Bonds (11.5%) and by this reason
alone, Dewan felt the right of way should be dedicated by American Shelter Corp „ as the
City would be required to pass a resolution approving the Indus. Rev. Bend, although it
would not cost the City anything.
. .
He was asked, relating it to the average homeowner, did he have a percent he (Dewan
Byrnes) could give as to the present tax base to Falcon Heights? He wasn't sure,
but A. Stefanson felt we were looking at approximately 1/3rd of our present tax .
base, should it go through and be fully dev~lc;ped.
Jim Bourquin felt we were looking at $3300. per year per dwelling unit and that
includes the commercial base, too. (many people entered into discussion and
couldn't get it off the tape) Corrected to $2500 per dwelling unit, could it
sustain that much.
Harold Nilsen questioned Mr. Barnes considering connecting fees. and who would pay
them, as he had to to his home. Will development bear any cost for trunk line costs?
Mr. Barnes said it was up to the Council to make those decisions.
Al made mention of the .petition representing a large portion of the population,
as presented. At this time the residents, individually, or through spokespersons,
could step ~~p to the mike and state their concerns.
LARRY STOWE - 1954 Autumn (Prior & Autumn) wishes to give an overview of score of
the concerns of 'this project.
1. Principle concern is the density. Tatum is 4 units per acre, Falcon
Woods is 3.5 per acre and this development is approximately 12 per acre.
That is 2~ - 3 times greater than adjacent residential areas. In
checking with other comnunits they are 5-10; 4-7, 2-4.5 per acre.
2. They would encourage a more effective use of land and encourage
open space.
3. Traffic, with approximately 500 .people in residence, with 2 autos per •
household would generate much more traffic, only compound problem.
His counter-proposal would be West with access to Cleveland Avenue.
Members of the neighborhood task force spoke with Clint Hewit of the
t1 of M and felt we could get access through their property to Cleveland.
4. Drainage, ponding areas - must. address safety. Perhaps inmaginative children
could get over many fences and cyclone fences weren't too attractive.
5. Is there adequate sanitary sewer? Proper evaporation and percolation?
Having 400-500 people in that quadrant of Falcon Heights and now plan
to add an additional 500 perople, are these areas properly evaluated
s ~r~u~d~t~~ya~e~~~*a~'~I t~-iis aacition`? fu.1y uevei~~iient s~,uuld br L-,ar'ux>t~lous i:u
RICHP~.2D GAY - 1930 Summer (Gay Realty/Horizon Development) He doesn't see the
normal problems that are usual to these types of development, here tonight.
1. Traffic - shouldn't require exit to Taum or Prior as these are in-
adequate exits.
2. Surface water - Rice Creek Watershed District will certainly take a good
look at this, for sure.
3. Parks - most important to all cities (stated how much he had paid, as a
developer for various parks in various cities). He was shocked by Mr.
Barnes figures and wouldlike to speak with him and he felt that $3300.
per unit was "remarkable". .
4. Financia]_ responsibility - he'd always had to be bonded and would this be
required. Also, Indus. Rev. Bonds only avai]_able to $10 million.
~Sandy.Larson, liason to Planning Commission told of the 1 tter from the U of M
regarding their proposal to se ,the soutl~P~nmost part of tie pork as ar. access to
Cleveland Avenue, for the additional traffic.
,,
(5)
Tom McGough - 1938 Stmmer Street- Gave a little background of his business ability.
~f~e s seen many plans for this area - om~,good ones and some not so good. He agreed
with Carl Dale - and strongly recommend that we follow Mr. Wallin's advice to have a
~PUD hearing later, giving time to review all the necessary documents. He'd like
to see this area developed as soon as ~ossible that he could then stop caning to these
meetings. Must require a bond, and it s not unusual and should require a performance bond.
Would like to have all information in the citizens' hands as early. as possible, prior
MARK ASCERNO - 1871 Tattan - an entomologist with thF University of Minnesota.
The traffic problems created on Tatum and Prior by this development - proposed -
to add 130 cars per hour, or 1 every 30 seconds. This is an encroachment on
property if Tatum would be widened. People are being asked to take a reduction in
the area at the cost to the homec~umers.
Ponding - Mosquito control is a probl~n. It would require steep slopes - very
important to reduce the mosq. population, with a slope of 30-45 degrees at minimum.
Need clean fill., as the land that is there caould or_l5' aid the breeding grotmds of
the mosquito. Percolation - nci less than 7 days and routine maintenance is a must,
in and around the ponds.
TAI McGough - 1938 Summer Street - look seriously at getting an exit to Cleveland
Avenue, and perhaps at some point in time we could lack to buying the southernmost
part of the park for a street - down the road in time, and buying is preferable to
leasing.
ERLING Halinger - 1875 Tatum. Motivation.- only people who can gain are the developers.
The people oppossed, including himself, are so because when they bought their property
they bought into a neighborhood in one condition and now it will become something else.
~~He encouraged Council and Commission to keep the same environment.
GECRGF. Kil riff - 1739 Tatum - Would this project increase the police force as it
is now? ewan felt that currently that would not be needed.) He wanted to know
if Harold Westin had ever build adjacent to a university prior to this time? (Harold
Westin said yes, next to Bethel College.) Asked definition of 100 year storm and
Mr. Westin told hirn about the facts and .figures. Also wished to know the areas of
trash containers - to which Mr. Westin replied, as best he could under the circumstances.
IRENE STRUCK, 1805 Tatum - '~Jhen was hearing for City Hall. Al told her that that was
not a consideration at this public hearing as it was just concerning this particular
project. She pursued her comments and wanted to 'Know more about City Mall and why
it wa5n'L necessary ~:o put it ot~ a referendum. Sandy Larson exglainec that it wasn't
necessary as we had sufficient financing. She also said she would speak with Irene
after the meeting, but that she was out of order at this particular time. 'T'his went
on for sane time, with the same answers and same questions.
Mr. Westin addressed sane of the concerns mentioned previously - he agreed totally
with Car]. Dale and Brad They could carefully loop traffic to keep it from entering
or exiting through Falcon Woods and he would be happy to go out Cleveland. There
will be 5C less people than originally planned, with single family dwelling units
now at the north end of project. Ponding runoff should be within 2 days and central
holding ponds - even tho it lends an attraction to small children, little danger
has been .present and it is not an unsurmountable hazard. Plat - will do this
He agrees with total PUD, as originally stated by both Carl and Brad.
Respect to density and highest use of property, they recognize thar_ if this land
were developed at 4 or 5 units per acre, it would not be developed for several
years, but this development, as planned is a bit more feasible. Because he can't
control access across the University, they are willing to listen; however; to any
suggestion. Also, he spoke with Don Swendra and he is home in bed with the flu.,
Al Stefanson spoke about requesting a financial statement of Don Swendra/American
Shelter Corp., and although Mr. Swendra agreed previously, when Al called him,
he refused, stating that his attorney said it was not necessary for him to do so.
It was felt, however, that this was something of importance to receive.
Jerry Wallin moved, seconded by Mary Waldo, that the public hearing be rescheduled
to February 1, 1982, at 7:00 p.m., at City Hall, assuming that all information is
on file in the City Hall by January 21st, 1982., and all information being those
items as set forth ir.. PUD zoning ordinance 138, 17.6(2). Passed unanimously.
Jim Bourquin wondered if they could add a financial statement and financial plan to
ti;at, especiai.iy :,:onsiveriYS~; tide itnes we find o~rr.sel.v~~ in alt ±-he present time.
It was felt (though the attorney had to leave and we couldnot ask him) that we would
be unable to hold up a public hearing by virtue of not receiving a financial statement,
though it was the general concensus that one should be obtained, if possible.
There was some discussion as to how Mr. Westin would proceed in the 3-year plan,
going in which directions, etc., as asked by Harold Nilsen. Mr. Westin said
that American Shelter could give that information; however, they don't wish to be
tied-in to any one hard, fast rule, in that they have no idea how quickly they
can sell the various areas and it is obvious that that has some bearing on how
quickly they proceed.
~~
The next item of business was the election of officers for the year
1982. Nilsen moved, seconded by Wallin that Al Stefanson be re-elect-
ed Chairman for the year 1982. Motion carried unanimously.
Jerry Wallin stated that he felt he could no longer continue as
secretary and upon asking for a volunteer from the Commission,
no one reponded. The Commission then discussed the possibility
of hiring a part time secretary to sit in on meetings and write
the minutes. Since Ordinance ~~177 stipulates that the secretary
must be chosen from the Commission, Olson moved, seconded by Wallin,
that the Commission request Council to amend Ordinance ~,~177 to
provide for a paid, pant time secretary. Motion carried uranimousJ_y.
rJaldo moved, seconded by Mead,-that Erma. Olson be re-elected Vice
Chairperson for the year.. 1982. Motion carried unanimously.
A method of finding time to re-write the Zoning Ordinance was
discussed. Since so much time has been spent on the proposed
development and future meetings may be devoted to the same subject,
Stefanson suggested, that at least for the winter months,an extra
meeting be scheduled between the regular meetings to be devoted
just the the. Zoning Ordinance.- The Commission Members agreed to ,;.~
meet at the City Hall on January 18, 1982, from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m,
for the purpose of working on the Ordinance.
Upon a motion duly made and seconded, the meeting was adjourned.
/ Sandy~on
Secretary, pro tem