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HomeMy WebLinkAbout08/08/1979 P&Z Minutes21 August 8, 1979 The special meeting of the Planning and Zoning Commission was called to order at 8 p.m., August 8, 1979, by Chairman Ken Gourley. Members present: Bob Doocey, Vernon Reinert, Lawrence Johnson and Council Liaison John McLean. Also present were Mr. Mobley, building inspector, Mr. Gotwald,.engineer, and Mr. Short, planner. The first item of business was Mr. McLean's report. which was held over until later. Next on the agenda was an application by Mr. and Mrs. McGeary, 8325 Rondeau Lake Rd. for a permit to move a house into the City. Mr. Mobley had a presntation ready. This was the first move -in house application to go through:the P & Z after the moratorium had been lifted and new procedures es- tablished. Pictures of the house to be moved in and aerial photos of the proposed site, including the residence there now were presented by Mr. Mobley, with explanations. The plan, was to remove the house.presently on the site, which was condemned, and to install the house purchased for the.move-in, usina the utilities now existing, with an upgrading of the power to 200 amps. Mr. Mobley gave the detail's on the move -in house, and felt it would definately upgrade the property.. He recommended the fascias and soffits be. replaced as they were.detiorated, and the house brushed down or painted before occupancy_ He felt that if the fascias and soffits were painted they would be acceptable but they did not meet the criteria. A member of the P & Z, Mr. Gourley, and a member of the Council,.Mayor Karth, had identified the house as being suit- able and had approved it. Mr. Mobley presented the required paperwork, with explanations. This included tax material pertaining -to both.properties, soil types and so forth -from the County survey maps,, aerial photographs, a floor plan and details as to structure on the new house. A building permit had been issued for the work to be done once the house was installed, which Mr. Mobley reviewed. The equipment for moving the house in had to be checked that it was capable and fit to serve the purpose for this particular house. Not done yet was the identification of the utilities --the locations of sewer, water, power and so forth. The $100 fee had been paid for the move -in .permit. Mr. Johnson inquired as to, the cost for permits.and so on,that the City required; it ran about $800, equivalent to what the cost in fees would be for a new house in the same location, plus the $100-fee. Mr. Doocey, inquired as to.insulat.ion, and Mr. Mobley indicated it was 15-20 percent low but there was no requirement.He also said a demolition permit was not, required_ on the p I d ,house, as it, was not in a developed area. Mr. Reinert asked if the state was involved, and how Mr.., Mobley's non -certification status, would affect that; Mr, Mobley indicated the state was not involved at;all.,Mr. Mobley ,felt that P & Z approval was.re- auired where a;house was being moved on to a vacant lot, and.whe.re the aesthe- tics in a developed area were a consideration, but questioned,whether it was necessary in this situation; Mr. Gourley indicated it was. Mr. Johnson moved to.recommend that Mr. and Mrs. McGeary;be granted a move -in house permit as soon as possible. Mr. Doocey seconded the, motion. All were in favor. . Motion declared passed. Mr. Mobley requested time to present another item concerning Tom Thumb, but.it was felt this should be held over until later. , The next item on;the agenda was.application by Mr. Skoglund, 7481 Lake.Drive, for a,variance to build a garage,for storage.5! from,the side lot_line rather than the required 10' for a commercially zoned,area. This variance had pre- viously,come up and had been delayed pending:a.recommendation.from.the build- ing inspector., Mr. Mobley's letter available, and was read by Mr. Gourley, Page 2 Planning and Zoning Commission August 8, 1979 , Property line construction was recommended in view of the fact that it was commercial property and would enable full use of the property. There were several objections to this recommendation: It was not a congested area, drainage or water run off from the garage would be on other property, and the owner would be trespassing in order to paint the garage. The ordinance was consulted for commercial property setbacks; these were 30' on the rear lot line and 10' on the side lot line. Mr. Skoglund sketched the layout of his property and explained his reasons for the garage location. There was some difficulty due to the angle of the lot lines to the street and to the house and garage. The 30' rear setback could notibe.met because .of•tbe.location of the house. The 10' si.de setback could be main- tained by shortening the garage; the proposed dimensions were 30 X 40 X 10 high. Mr. Gourley noted that Mr. Mobley hadnot addressed the question asked of him in hisletter, which was how the garage could be fit in and; still maintain the ordinance requirements. Mr. Gourley felt that as Mr. Skoglund's property was adjacent to residential property onthe rear lot line, that a residential setback of 5' would be acceptable there, but that. the side setback of 10' should be met. Mr. Skoglund felt he could shortenn. the building by 5' (35 X 30) in order;to meet that requirement. Mr. Johnson moved to recommend that.Mr. Skoglund be granted a variance for a 5' rear setback and that the sidesetback.be maintained at 10'. Mr. Doocey seconded the motion. All were in favor. Motion declared passed. This will .be on the Council agenda for -August 13. Mr. Reinert asked that the Clerk be told he did not receive his packet this month. Next on the agenda was the Comprehensive Land Use planning session with Mr. Gotwald, engineer, and Mr. Short, planner, present. The planner and engineer were asked for their comments on the list from the July 11 meeting of the assets and liabilities of Lino Lakes as a community, and this was opened to general discussion. Mr. Short felt that under the asset column, "open rural feeling" should be included with #5, and that "parks and re- creation" should be added to #16. Mr. Gotwald felt that another point could be added, that development has been taking place rather slowly and the majority of developments have been large suburban lots of one acre or or more. Because of that type of development, the need for more intensive services'would be less. He added that the large Tots and varying to- pography add to the rural atmosphere. It was pointed out that the lot size could become a problem at a future time when services are extended, as the assessments on acre lot would be high. Under Iiabililities, Mr. Short felt that #2 and #3, high water table and restricted soils, were essentially the same. On #9, the wording should be changed to "lack of proffessional services." He suggested some additional liabilities, which would be (14) the amount of goverment controlled non- taxable land, which relates to high taxes, another possible addition. This land would also not be available for development (the County Park, St. Paul Water Department, the State Training Center). Mr. Gotwald added freeways and unusable marginal land. Mr. Short indicated that the present Comprehensive Plan talks about objectives, goals and policies and that type of thing was based on lists like these. Mr. Gotwald felt that people associated Lino Lakes with the Circle Pines school district, which was not considered high Page 3 Planning and Zoning Commission August 8, 1979 quality. He,felt this was an important consideration for buyers of new homes, but as development took place in Lino Lakes the situation would • improve. The tax levels would also drop as development took place, although again the amount of,non-taxable land was a factor. Mr.iGourley asked what the City could do to lower taxes :that was not being done. Mr. Gotwald suggested the P $ Z put more emphasis on commercial and industrial develop- ment; that right now Lino,Lakes was a bedroom community.He noted that Circle Pines and Shoreview were already developed communitiesand any further development would take place in Blaine or Lino Lakes. He thought the city should not worry about sewer service,to the one acre lots, but try to get those services along Highway 8, and that most of the industrial and commercial growth would take place west of the lines of freeways. Mr. Reinert felt that the City was 'limited due to the lack of sewer and water services, and that industrial development would move'to cities where This was available. ,Mr. Gotwald suggested that in the land use plan certain areas should be targeted for this growth. He pointed out that there are types of industry that do not require sanitary sewer service and for which a good on site system would be sufficient. He indicated there were sewer services available from Blaine in the area that would develop in an industrial way, and if there were an industry that wanted to come in this could be extended. Mr. Reinert felt that industries might stay our because of the high taxes; Mr. Johnson brought up the 5 year moratorium on taxes for businesses in downtown St. Paul. Mr. Gourley felt that therewere things that would off- set taxes if there were water and,sewer.services available, for example, excellent transportation services. Mr. Gotwald commented that good in- dustrial zoned land could,be bought for a'minimal amount even compared to Roseville or Shoreview and that land costs often have more of an impact on some businesses than actual taxes, depending on the type of building. Mr. Gourley noted that some concerns raised by potential business were lack of motels and restaurant facilities for employees and customers, which is again related to sewer and water services, which seemed to be the basic problem. Mr. Gotwald noted that financing is often difficult without these types of services, and also insurance rates would be high without the proper fire protection or water services. Under the section of the list marked "other," the first item, schools,. was felt to be dependent on tax dollars, and that initally most of themoney went into the structure. The general feeling was that the quality was not that high, but this would. improve in the future. Mr. Gotwald noted that the type of people moving into the community was mostly young professional. people who would support increased servises. Mr. Gourley asked how the City judged when to quit contracting for fire services and develop something of its own. Mr. Gotwald said there was no real formulafor that, but mentioned some communities who started their own at about the 5,000 popula- tion level, which Lino Lakes is just about at now. When 7,000-10,000 plus population is reached, the City -would need a full-time engineer, -a recreation director, etc., and the City's own fire department than with a contracted fire service. Mr Gotwald answered that in most cases cities have volunteer fire departments, which are paid a certain amount per month and have retirement and so on, but that there were no:suburban areas that he knew of with a full-time professional fire department. He noted that the biggest cost the City would face in the future would be the police depart- ment. He felt these services would be feasible when there was a large enough tax base to pay' for them. Mr. Reinert asked if the planner or en- •J R Page 4 Planning and Zoning August 8, 1979 gineer had lists of active federal grants for fire departments, police and. so forth. Mr. Short indicated that "grantsmanship" was,a full time job. because the state and federal grants situation was always changing, and mentioned three communities in White Bear that had jointly hired .someone just to handle this. His experience has been with park related grants. Mr. Reinert asked if the planner had available any formulas for When a population reached a certain level, what types of services should be, provided, people hired, and so on. Mr. Short , fe I t ,that perhaps a, manage- ment consultant would have those answers, but he did not. _Mr, Gotwald, in relation to grants, said that all federal money was funneled. through Metro Council now for sewers and water. He suggested that,the City Ad- ministrator could keep up with some of the grants available.: Mr. Short In relation to Metro Council „ said that -it was a regional clearinghouse for grants, which meant they review grants applicationsfor,federal money and priortize;the applicants as to whether they are consistant,with the regional plans., Mr. Reinert mentioned that a Legislarute Advisory Committee was being considered,; which sould be,a clearinghouse for federal, money coming into the state. Continuing with the "other" section, under roads, Mr. Gotwald reviewed the, stivation and felt they were an asset. The'5-year plan had largely eli- minated the gravel road system and there were now 34 miles of road, with 32-4 miles of new surfaced roads added in the past 3,months; all streets installed by developers had met thespecifications; and there was the free- way system and several municipal, county and state were a problem, although. there were not too many of these. The road system would become an asset when the City reached the 5,000 population level, at which time state aid from the city's share of the gasoline tax would be received for certain roads. There was a formula for computing the amount the City would re- ceive, based onithe number of miles of city and county roads, and certain criteria to be met. He estimated the City would receive about $80,000- 90,000 a year to improve and maintain qualifying, designated roads. Mr. Gourley brought up the case of Moline Concrete, where they had expanded and were now using 4th Ave. which was not built for that heavy a use. He thought the City should be aware of that potential situation when a heavy industrial use came in, and askedif there were a way to get the developer to cooperate in upgrading the portion of the roads they would be using. Mr. Gotwald said that the only way to upgrade 4th Ave. from Lilac going north be posted with a 5-ton limit; these would be two ways to control that type of situation. Mr. Gourley asked if there were a way to control this when the industry came in, prior to the problem rather than after the fact. Mr. Gotwald recommended that if there were multiple property owners, the planner and engineer could recommend the improvement be assessed directly to those people. Mr. Gourley noted that a lot of roads would suffice under the present use, but wouldn't if more industry moved in, and thatin the , case in point, 4th Ave. it would be unfair to assess the individuai property owners along the rest of the road to upgrade it to commercial status. There would be no ordinance change involved to handle the situation but Mr. Gourley asked that this be kept in mind for possible future situations. Mr.. Johnson suggested a developer agreement like the one from Lakeville be used. It was noted that Mr. Gotwald had drawn up a map for the City showing the different plats in relation to each other, and this was in the office. Page 5 Planning and Zoning August 8, 1979 The planner and engineer were asked for comments on the outline,from the July 11 meeting on items to be worked on. Mr. Short noted that on #1, the Park Board was working on a comprehensive park plan, which.would be submitted as a part of the Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Gourley suggested there be a joint meeting with the Park Board or a delegation from their board to present that plan to the Planning and Zoning. Commission, and this wouldhave to be, allowed for on the time schedule. Mr. Reinert questioned whether the planner. shouldn't be preparing the Com- prehensive Plan for the City rather than the way it was being done. Mr., Gotwald felt in his experience that the planning commission should not shift their responsibility to the planner.;, that their approach. was right ;in, providing the guidance, with the planner and engineer, putting it in acceptable, form. Mr. Short explained that after the Comprehensive Plan was submit.ted,to Metro Council, they reviewed it to see if it related to adjacent communities, and as to,.whether it was consistent with the plan content guidelines (discussed, Iater)and with their regional plans. If it was not, they would request it become so, although they would not have much influence until grants were applied for, with the exception of the state aid road system grant. In relation to .the work load, Mr. Short felt a zoning district map should be done. He felt adopting shoreline management regulations was particularl.y important. The restrictive soils item was also discussed. Mr. Short felt the soils map was only a.guide to help determine where there might be problems, and where to require tests. Mr. Gotwald also felt the soils map. was a good reference but was not that detailed,and should indicate to the building inspector that for a given area, :certain things would be necessary to make an on -site system workable. Mr. Reinert said the soil survey book out- lines or recommends what is needed for a certain area --it shows how severe the problem.is, with details. Mr. Gotwald felt it should be used. Mr. Short reviewed the marginal and severe soils restrictions; "severe" required the applicant to prove to the City that he can develop on that soil and. it needed to be certified by a,professional in the field; "marginal" does not have that limitation, but he felt it should at least be looked at by a professional, although not necessarily a professional engineer. Mr. Gotwald felt most registered engineers either could or would not do as good a job as a certified soil tester, such as they have in some other areas, Mr. Gotwald also pointed out that today, a homeowner could sue if the sewer system had not been put in right under the protections of a warranty program. Mr. Short suggested requiring a permit for development on marginal soils. ,Mr. Short indicated that WPC-40 had been completed at the end of last year and was available to be adopted or to be used as a guide or standard. Mr. Gotwald recommended it be adopted, and. Mr. McLean indicated it would be. Mr. Gotwald will get the latest copy so it can be reviewed and can be reviewed and acted as soon as possible. Mr. Short briefly discussed items #19 and'#20,.lot sizes and building sizes, and felt these issues needed to be resolved relative to the land use plan by assigning different lot sizes to different districts and so on. Mr. Gotwald indicated he had completed the urban service district maps for the Comprehensive Sewer Plan and had copies available. Lr Page 6 Planning and Zoning August 8, 1979 All the necessary date were listed on the maps,which Mr. Gotwald reviewed. He also had available a sewer service schedule map which had basically the same information with what is scheduled for the future added. Mr. Gourley asked what was the status on the south center as far as pollution control was concerned; Mr. Gotwald said that the extensions are based on the fact that Lino Lakes is going to do something that would make it possible for them to clean up their problems. Mr. Gotwald will talk to Metro informally on the Comprehensive Sewer Plan. He indicated Metro has, released part of Urban Sewer District 1 for connection. This would be 300 connections in the south area between now and the time the Comprehensive Plan is completed. Part of the requirement was that an interim plan be submitted, which they had now. Mr. Gotwald had maps ofthis available, which he explained. Mr. Gotwald will document the amount of sewer flow expected in 1980..and submit it for the final o.k. on the 300 connections. The final Comprehensive Sewer Plan will need blueprints and so on, which will be done later. In reference to #4, drainage, Mr. Gotwald indicated all that is required is a wetlands map,•basically showing swamp area, and possibly .lake, elevations. As for the detailed work on centralizing ponding areas, this would run about $15,000; Mr. Gotwald felt that information from the state flood plain work could possibly be utilized on this. This would cut costs down, and as it was not required for the Comprehensive Plan, .he recommended waiting to see if the information from that report could be,used. Possibly it.wouId contain all the information needed, so that it would only need to be put together in a form the City could use. Mr. Gourley felt that in light, of the number of plats coming in, the concern was to get something started on centralized ponding as soon as possible, as it could cost more in the long run to wait for the information. Mr. Gotwald said i.t.would depend on how the develop- ment was taking place, which he felt was scattered, so it wouldn't make that much difference. Mr.Gourley thought perhaps something minimal could be done to take care of the two major developing areas. Mr..Gotwald will start work on the wetlands map and elevations, and after these are completed, attention could be focused on one or two of the areas with plats for centra- lizing ponds. He suggested using a zoning classification called conser- vation land to reserve areas for.the central ponds. He will be sending in estimated costs for budgetary:purposes, and will include the ponding areas study as a separate item. Mr. Doocey asked if Mr. Gotwald could advise as to where the ponding should be or where it should be channelled to if off the property when he reviews plats in the future. This will be possible when the wetlands map is finished.. In reference to transportation on the workload outline, Mr. Gotwald felt this would be no problem, as it was pretty well covered in the present Comprehen- sive Plan. A statement that all new road construction within the City fulfills the requirements, and listing the specifications should be included in the new plan. In reference to street lighting, Mr. Gotwald was in contact with NSP on street lighting in the Shenandoah area and at the same time he asked them relative to the Comprehensive Plan to come up with a sample ordinance for street lighting that would be installed by the developer for types of poles, types of lighting and costs, etc. These would then be turned over to the City and it would run $6-7 per light for the City for power. All the cost options would be in the report. Mr. Short presented a review of the summarized Plan Content Guideline, pre- pared byMetro Council, and copies were avilable. Page 7 Planning and Zoning August 8, 1979 The whole comprehensive plan process had been divided into 3.phases: Under phase 1, they want the existing land use plan updated, and are looking at urban service areas, environmentally sensitive areas, and so on. Under phase 2, the transportation plan .should use what is called a functional classification system, each community using the same system. Things looked at: Locations of bridges that accomodate bicyles and pedestrians, detailed traffic circulation plans around interchanges, the existing and proposed lend use in that area the exixting transit routes serving the area, etc. This could also address suggested routes for express buses. Included here were the unitary. sewer plan and storm drains, and parks and open spaces, under which Metro looks at how the City relates to Metro parks and open spaces, the land use adjacent to the regional parks, the City park plan and whether it coordinates with the regional parks, etc. Mr. McLean asked about the resulting situation if anything the City,,lcomitted itself to for Metro in the Comprehensive Plan were for one reason or another not carried through. Mr. Short indicated that realistically a plan would have changes, and that Metro recognized that. He also noted Metro had three priorities of cities in the region, and Lino Lakes was in the lowest priority area. In the third phase, under housing imple- mentation, Metro asked that a variety of types of housing be provided in the community for different income levels and that processes implementing that be taken --minimum lot sizes, zoning, etc. ,The biggest issue was whether low and middle income housing opportunities were being provided to builders to build a certain number of these units. Under the next item, official controls, they ask that the City describe or summarize zoning ordinance as to intent and standards in them. Mr. Short suggested the ordinances be included anyway. Metro also asked for recommendations for amending those: ordinances to reflect what was established in the land use plan. The last item was capital im- provements. As a result of transportation, sewer and parks plans, there will be recommendations that the City will have for improvements; an outlined 5- year projection plan on how the City intends to make those improvements should be included here. Mr. Short had drawn up a work program. Mr. Gourley, Mr. McLean, Mr. Gotwald and Mr. Short will meet and merge this with the P & Z lists for a new work program and schedule.,Mr. Doocey moved to adjourn at 11:25 p.m.; seconded by Mr. Johnson. All were in favor. Motion declared passed.