HomeMy WebLinkAbout06/25/2001 Council Minutes (2)EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
CITY OF LINO LAKES
EXCERPT OF CITY COUNCIL MINUTES
VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT
DATE : June 25, 2001
MEMBERS PRESENT : Carlson, Dahl, O'Donnell, Reinert, and Mayor Bergeson
MEMBERS ABSENT : None
COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DEPARTMENT REPORT
CONTINUED PUBLIC HEARING, Comprehensive Land Use Plan, Jeff Smyser — (Mayor
Bergeson advised the City Council opened the public hearing on the draft Comprehensive Plan at the
June 11, 2001, meeting. The hearing was continued to this evening.)
MAYOR BERGESON: Umm, let me see the hands of t
who want to comment tonight. (inaudible) All right, we'll b
(inaudible)
not comment last time
and then come back and
MR. JOHNSON: Mayor and members of th , rm John Johnnson, Director of
Engineering for Metro Land Surveying and Engiere tonight on behalf of Mr. Rehbein,
on a piece of property that he has in the Compr'ensiv'lan located in the eastern part of the
community. Ahh, our presence here tonig .it. d because of interests that have been
expressed by two very large, nation-wid rs at have approached Mr. Rehbein and wanting to
investigate development of the propel, ently proposed to be guided medium high density.
And, their analysis of the site indi w it c `cern that the narrowness of the site, the long linear
nature limits their flexibility in t and design. We're here tonight to enter into the record for
the public hearing, and to as "` y C s ncil to consider, maybe, modifying that district shape in
some fashion as we mov ugh the planning process to make it a little wider east/west,
probably over to about 21 • where 21st Street may get built in the future.
Twenty-first Street will pro + e the sewer and water access for property in this area because of where
the existing trunk utilities are currently in Main Street. But, I think the important part tonight is for us
to, ahh, request that your consideration be given. I believe copies of the letter and a map that we're
talking about was included in your packets. If not, I have extra copies with me tonight. (inaudible)
But, I ahh, and then I'm here, you know, to try to say there is an issue that we would like to, some
flexibility in, ahh, being able to design. I don't know if this is, ahh, would like to, I don't know, if you
respond tonight I suspect that you would be doing your addressing of issues at some other point in
time, possibly. But, that's our point. If you have any questions, I'd be glad to answer them. Thank
you.
MAYOR BERGESON: And, if you could spell your name please.
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
MR. FEATHERSTONE: I could do that.
MAYOR BERGESON: (Inaudible)
MR. FEATHERSTONE: My name is Scott Featherstone, F -e -a -t -h -e -r -s -t -o -n -e. I live at 631
Andall Street in an area that used to be called, or may still be known as Arena Acres. I was at the
Council meeting two weeks ago, heard some of my neighbors speak, in what I would consider a rather
emotional plea to the Council about the 80 acres that's just east of my property.
I think that there are two things that you ought to know about me. First, I didn't put any of you in the
seat that you're at. And, nor, did I hinder your election. I keep my involvement in City government
very limited. When the stadium was up over on the east side of Lino Lakes my two questions were:
What's this area going to look like two years from now? And, how am I going to avoid it? The
Kohls/Target project, I had the same questions. What would it look like? And, how am I going to
avoid it.
I bring you three things tonight that I think are very important.
to what you're going to do. I knew when I purchased the pro
road going through the south section of my land and that t
fashion or another.
But, the three things that I bring you are simplici
not seen yet. But, I think that it's simple enoug
would be able to be explained to a 12 year
How much land are you going to use?
that I can understand. If it gets too
interest and become angry. That's
n changing your minds as
ago that there would be a
ould be developed in some
eratio , and truthfulness. The Plan, I have
can explain it to me in a fashion that it
many houses are you going to put there?
e going to get in and out? That is something
complex than that, I will get frustrated, lose
I'm not fond of it but I'll work on that.
I think that, ahh, the moderat'` of ngs would be that once you get a ball rolling, it is harder to
stop it and more spendy t. stop it .j to, perhaps, start it rolling initially. Four people at the last
meeting spoke from my X.. is some concern on what's going on. I think you need to look
into what's happening over F ere Is it necessary?
The truthfulness of the matter here would be that if your Plan is good for the Arena Acres people and
their lifestyle, if the Plan is good for the City, why don't we know about it? I would think that
somebody, if this Plan is as good as it should be, would be letting people know and taking credit for
that great idea. Change is hard and change is scary. I don't know what it's going to look like. I don't
know who's going to move in. I heard talk of, what do they call them, affordable housing. In these
times, I sometimes feel that's an oxymoron. Affordable housing? With the jobs that are coming into
Lino Lakes and the pay that would be paid them, I don't know how anyone makes a go of family and
house ownership on wages that a Kohl's or a Target would pay.
I'm not sure if you have a model that you're planning this after. I don't know if it's tried and true. I
would like to know. I do know that people will remember what it is you do there if you come up
short. People are more apt to remember your shortcomings and the things that go wrong than they do
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
• your successes. Without allowing people to have a hand in what's going on, then they'll become
resentful and they will mistrust the City government and that will last long past this Council standing.
I urge you to relook at what you are going to do, to consider the neighborhood, to consider the people,
to listen to the people. Because, as I understand the City, a City is made up of people, businesses, and
buildings. The buildings house the people and the businesses. The businesses support, or I should
say the people support the businesses and it's the people that are the City. And, you are, certainly, the
City. Let us know what your plans are. Let us have a part in it. You'll find the Arena Acre people
very willing to cooperate with you. Thank you very much.
MAYOR BERGESON: Thank you. Way in the back. Mr. Joyer.
MR. JOYER: Hello. I'm Jeff Joyer, J -o -y -e -r, (8174 Lake Drive) here to talk about two
parcels that I own in the City of Lino Lakes. A couple simple, ahh, specifically request if I might.
Ahh, for starters, my wife and I own and operate Walnut Farm, althou
do (laughter) located on Lake Drive, about a half a mile, three-qu
That property, I discovered this morning, shows up on the prop
medium density, ahh, etc. But, specifically not showing the
zoning map. So, I'm asking for a, what I think is a correct
specific, ahh, piece of property. We do have, ahh, 39 . res
eight acres. It's a, it's a, in a previous meeting, proba
18 years ago, it was described as 600 feet of frons ng L
• And, it does, it does show up on the, ahh, zonin
it does recognize the current business is likPul *
one change I'd like to propose.
Also, umm, I, as I got a copy of th
Main Street, 990, 996, and it a
for that property. And, it is a
would ask that the boundary incl
sooner than 2010.
e operates it more than I
orth of Main Street.
e Plan as, ahh, basically
sses' zoning on the current
an oversight regarding that
e. The general business is about
years ago, it was, it might even be 15,
e Drive and approximately as deep.
urrently it's kind of an odd configuration but
re and expand as Lino grows. So, that's ahh,
ming and found there is a duplex that I own on, ahh,
it's actually on a septic system and I would welcome sewer
o o sides the proposed growth area for up to 2010. And, I
at property so that it could, could be serviced by City services
Okay, would you like, I've g a couple of (inaudible) descriptions written up (inaudible).
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I do. (inaudible conversation off microphone)
MR. JOYER: I sent an e-mail earlier that Jeff might of copied. (inaudible conversation off
microphone)
MAYOR BERGESON: Okay. Mr. Hawkins.
MR. HAWKINS: My name is Art Hawkins, 6102 Centerville Road. Members of the
Council, I'm here to read my remarks because they deal with quite a number of figures and, ahh, and a
couple of quotes. But, ahh, I have read the, ahh, latest revisions, as far as I know of the Comp Plan
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
from cover to cover, but my remarks tonight are going to be mainly concerned with the, the tables on
Page 3 and on Page 65.
I think you'll all agree with this statement that a pending agreement on a gross strategy requires many,
often heated debates at City Hall. Finally a compromise agreement has been, was reached and
published in The Quad on two dates in 1998, September 9th, or 15th, and September 22nd and I quote
from that particular edition of The Quad: "The proposed plan calls for moderate growth of 147
homes per year, average growth (inaudible) 147 per year which slows growth in Lino Lakes by 70%
over the growth rate of the past seven years. The population is now approximately 15,000." I'm
continuing to quote now. "At full growth, it is expected to be 20,500. The Metropolitan Council
made forecast for regional population growth and predicted that Lino Lakes would have 25,000
people by the year 2020. The City decides its own future with it's Comprehensive Plan. The City has
its population limit at 20,500 by 2020." That's the end of the quote.
So, finally there were definitely goals of 147 new units per year and 21 0 as a maximum population
to guide development to the year 2020. How well has the City co these goals? We now
turn to the Comp Plan update being discussed here tonight for w `' O' age 1 of this plan it says:
"The Comprehensive Plan and related support documents es ,� hs `.,he�`a for future community
growth." The, on Page 3 it says: "The following issue su ctive of issues, concerns, and
opportunities that have been identified to the 2020 Vis +n. °`¢ Sta nt, 1997 Community Survey,
and a series of public meetings held at, part of the plcess. The issues which were
identified..." In this group that I just mentioned. _ l in ti following basic categories: rate of
community growth, land use, environmental pr. ction, ansportation, and public facilities and
services. Note all of these categories and p c's . ', are heavily dependent on growth. To
provide and use growth figures and proj as accurately as possible is essential in every facet of
the plan if planning is to meet the ap Nothing can be done now to alter the fact that the
agreed upon growth rate of 147 un ear not been followed. According to the table on Page
3 of the Plan, the average annu s+ld growth was 241.5 for the decade of the 90s and we
understand it has been that o for ' e years 2000 and 2001. US Census showed the City
population to be at 16,79 in the 000. By the end of this year, our City population will
approach 18,200.
The table headed "Lino Lak Demographic Goals" on page 65 tells a different story. It shows the
population for the year 2000 to be 14,540, not 16,791 the official census figure. Simple arithmetic
shows that the difference between the present population and the goal population of 20,500 is about
2,300 new residents. Spread evenly over 20 years, that amounts to 115 people per year and converted
to houses at three per house, equals 38 houses per year. So, instead of 147 new homes per year as the
Plan calls for, the correct number is 38, casting a very different shadow on the outlook for City
management.
If we stood by the original agreement, the whole picture changes regarding the need for extending
MUSA, building new schools, providing other services, upgrading roads, and so forth and the threat
to open space is reduced. At 147 units per year, the population would reach this 20,500 limit by the
year 2006. Then what happens for the next 14 years until they the year 2020. Or, or, if the City
grows at the rate prescribed, which is 147 units per year, by 2020 the population would reach about
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
26,500 or 6,000 over the prescribed limit. If you follow the Plan as it is now written, you simply can't
get there from here.
In summary, the Comp Plan as now worded on Page 65 would commit the City to an average of 147
new households annually through the year 2020. Translating households to people, that rate would
add about 440 residents per year. If the final goal is 20,500, we would reach that goal in the year
2006 according to my calculations. And even that assumes that we can drop from our present rate of
growth, which is about 800 per year, to 440 in one year.
That's why I conclude that our Comp Plan is not ready to go anywhere except back to the drawing
board at the present time. To accept the present draft of the Plan would be a sad ending to a process
which, at the beginning, held so much promise, involved so many people, and cost so much time and
money. Thank you.
MAYOR BERGESON: Is there anyone else who did not spe ast week's meeting? Yes.
MS. GRUNDHOFER: Good evening. My name is Co
(235 Linda Avenue). I'm here to speak about keeping some
and fauna that we have in Lino Lakes is very special. The,
People live in the community. So do plants and anim
taking places away from them or fragment their plac
There'll be bird that won't come here anymore
People, as we, would not want to go 100
and the plants. They don't want to go 1
have a great opportunity now to keep
majority of the people who moved
big huge city. They want to be
good.
er, G -r -u -n -d -h -o -f -e -r
the Comp Plan. The flora
ered, threatened species.
each other and if we keep on
e. They will not exist anymore.
ants that will die.
ry store. And, it's the same for the animals
rid food. And, we have a special place and we
se that is what the people had wanted. The
st place want it that way. They don't want to have a
e their open spaces. They want their water quality to be
Hundreds of years ago an : ! at this time, people, through not having the right knowledge or
not planning it correctly, h cr ated deserts. We would not be creating a desert here. But, we're
certainly going to be taking . of of special plants and animals that we have now and they will not
exist anymore. Thank you.
MAYOR BERGESON: Anyone else who didn't get a chance to speak at the last hearing?
Okay. Now, how many of you spoke last time but would like to speak again? All right. We'll ask
that you come up and, ahh, we to have a transcript of your comments from last time so (inaudible) a
repeat of what we heard last time. We'll ask you to come up and you'll have the floor (inaudible) hear
something else. Let's start on this side on down and we'll just go across.
MR. DUNN: Good evening Council, staff, audience. My name is Donald Dunn. I live at
6885 Blackduck Drive. The spelling of the last name is D -u -n -n. If you would, the Quad Press, I'm
the man, apparently, that spoke up. I'd rather be thought of as the citizen that came forth and
expressed his opinion, than that man, "I am the man." I'm here to do so again tonight. And, I hope I
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
have abided by your wishes, John, because I have consolidated and tried to summarize my personal
beliefs and feelings regarding the Comp Plan.
If you watch TV, some of the programs started out, especially Geraldo, with a little slogan or saying
that king of epitomizes the entire program. It does it's best to summarize up front what they are going
to be talking about downstream. I had a difficult time because I came up with two. And, they tied.
The first one, I would entitle, "This is a Comp Plan with flexibility for friends." And, the other one,
author unknown, it's a Latin translation that followed a movie that I watched a while back, and it was
regarding "How things got out of control in a Governor's office." And, by God, as, how hard as the
citizens tried, they didn't make any progress. The citizens didn't win and the "good old boy's club"
did.
And, this translation broke down into who is guarding the guards? Who is guarding the guards? You
are the guards. Tonight I'm here because as of the guards. Hopefully . orrow, there'll be a lot of
guarding of the guards.
As far as I know, what has been made public to me, there wi
letter that you directed to the folks that worked on the Co
word "encourage" rather than "require." That is still . iss
this public hearing, I was unclear after the last meeti
Mayor of how we're going to wrap these things
ranged to, from a special work session to, sugge
are we going to vote, when are we going to , e.
Lacking any knowledge that things
actions should take place, led by th
one of the requests that I'm as
the last public hearing. And,
this meeting. Because, I � ink it
what, what's, what the ci
document be in your hands ior `o
mandatory.
e in the approach from the
e back. And, that was the
e. How you folks will deal with
d. here was discussion, led by the
e we going to do. The comments
e Mayor, to when are going to vote, when
lmember Dahl, would take credit for that.
request that the record show that the following
ped and supported by the staff. You've already done
d, that was to have available to the public the transcript of
at Linda and I hope you will make that available soon for
ery useful tool that the public should have access to and see
eling. And, I believe it is absolutely mandatory that this
any work session to discuss the next steps on the plan. Absolutely
Here are some of the major things that continue to concern me, for our citizens, from my perspective.
The "encourage" versus "require" is, is troubling me. And, the focus is within the Development Plan.
I don't have any issues with the inventory and background. It's the Development Plan. That's, that's
the heart, heart of the Comp Plan in my opinion. And, the answer that we got as, as, as helpers here a
couple weeks ago, and I'll quote from your letter: "spent considerable time figuring out how we can
regulate the growth rate to stay within that limit." Ah, I asked you two weeks ago to translate that
into a document. I'd like to see that document prior to any work session. I think that it should be
prepared and signed by each and every member of the Council as your plan of how you're going to
regulate the growth.
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
I'm, ahh, also concerned about that aspect in that in reading through the, somewhat sketchy at times,
somewhat complete some times, the work session minutes, that there was a question raised several
months ago, almost, I think over a year ago, back in April of 2000, of whether the actions that, that
were being thought of by the board were legal. I never found out any, any answer to that question that
this group posed. Do you have the answer? Ahh, that's a problem. So, that's one issue. It's the, how
are you going to regulate the growth rate?
Taxes, page 29, it's the only one I put a page number down. It talks about, and again, this is a quote:
"Achieving the objective by 2020 of the City tax rate to 20 percent or lower through fiscal and land
use planning." I have two thought on that. Twenty years is a long time for the citizens to wait, in my
opinion. A long, long time. And, how is that going to happen? How is the Council going to take that
commitment and put it into writing so that a task can be structured for staff to "hold their feet to the
fire," so to speak, to get it done? I'd like to see that too.
The shopping center, and I will not be repetitive because I've spoke ohly in favor of it. I
believe, and I'll just summarize quickly, the advantages that this w offe the citizens. One,
maybe not right at the beginning of a improved tax rate, so we ce of the things we can't
now afford without raising taxes. Keep in mind that you've utting, cutting down the
rates 20 percent and yet expenditures have to flow upwar's the money going to come
from? I am totally in support of that shopping center. hat e land was zoned for. It will do
great things for this development, here, in this compl >��emember, a dollar in the bank is better
;
than zero dollars in the bank. So, we may have tR or»ou'`TIF funding to pay itself back. Let's
figure out a way to do it. And, I'm asking that t Corn; Plan be structured to make sure that that
event can take place in a very timely mann Uely, the last thing I heard or read in the, in
the work session minutes, was that, u s,. the s eveloper that turned down a, a request for a
meeting back on the third of March, e • ch, I beg your pardon if I don't have the date
right. But, I think this is an event ple ould keep us posted somehow. It's a big event. That
will, that'll go a long way to so, s �� 1 e of our tax dollar needs.
The next issue is afforda . e
you've heard me speak of
won't meet those needs. T
or begin to comprehend ho
hous did not know another gentleman was going to talk about, but
. The high density allocation land is inadequate. Town Center
's gh buck. I've said that before. And, I personally don't understand,
ou folks think that this will meet the goals of the Met Council, which is
endorsing this type of housing for our City. And, the "carrot" they're holding out is money, money, to
develop this complex. And, that's a pretty big "carrot."
Land use. I'm only going to mention two specifics and then I'm going to talk in general because I
have, since talking to you the last time, I've reflected and done some additional thinking on the total
subject, the 28 or so requests that have come to, to you folks. I don't believe spot zoning is permitted
in anyplace in the City. Anyplace, nor permitted by ordinance. The commercial change on J by the J -
Mart is a spot zoning change. I don't believe it should be allowed, and or recognized with this Comp
Plan.
1111 The other one was one that was certainly sensitive to Caroline. And, that was accelerating property
Phase II to Phase I. I have continued concern, as you folks should, and perhaps the lawyer. How can
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
we allow that from an overall view point that there are a lot of people that maybe would like to
develop their land that are not in MUSA now. How are you going to turn them down? Is it legal? I
don't know. We should have the answer. I don't want to be paying for a lawsuit. I don't want to be
paying for a lawsuit. And, that's again where I believe the flexibility for friendship happened. And, I
don't, I didn't buy into the explanation that the Council person involved left the room. That don't
mean anything. You're friends. Plus, it's very interesting that the other side of the house also is a
building contractor. Looks to me like a conflict of interest, ladies and gentlemen.
But, the broader issue on all of those, is how did you allow that to happen? The public hearings on
land use were closed by Planning & Zoning Board, two years or more years ago. I could find no legal
evidence that this was advertised to the City of Lino Lakes residents every which one of them, saying
that the door was now open to reconsideration of land use changes. I solicited help from the staff.
Couldn't find anything. So, I think you have a list of properties that don't fit the ordinances or fit the
equation for being fair to all residents. Because, I can't find any public record announcing that fact.
And, from what I know about the ordinances and the City Charter, tha st be done. So, lets look at
that. Fairness is the question on that. Were you fair to everybody? , i ect few.
That's enough(inaudible) tonight. As I said, I was guarding
brought back a thought that my granddaughter, Loran, wh
it was a pretty astute comment to her grandpa. She sai
and sometimes you gets nothing." Pretty astute.
u're the guards. And, it
as about four or five then, but
grandpa, you gets what you gets,
Council, it does not have to be that way on the t• mpre nsive Plan. We should get something. The
citizens, all of us, should get something. A I e _y see you, by taking charge and putting some
requirements in there and not encourage . the successors downstream know what you meant.
Thank you.
MAYOR BERGESON: '1 ntinue on here. Mike, you want to go next? We'll let Mr.
Stadum catch is breath.
MR. TREHUS: 0
Plan talks out of both sides
we're going to control, we'r
Trehus, 675 Shadow Court. In laymen's terms, a Comprehensive
its mouth. If you read the Plan and the wording in the Plan, it says
oing to do, you know, a lot of nice things for the environment. But,
none of this has any teeth. You look at the map, I don't know if, if the home audience can see this.
All these little areas, it doesn't come through very well, but we're more than doubling the MUSA
here. We're, we're talking about a 67 percent add on as soon as this Plan is, is approved the way it
stands. Sixty-seven percent. Now, we've got a population today, give or take, 18,000 people. And,
we're doing that with the MUSA of 3700 acres and we're going to add on a lump two-thirds bigger
than that. And, we're going to control growth at the same time? Doesn't that seem a little
contradictory to anybody? Maybe, maybe I'm missing something here. This, to me if you're going to
control growth, you're going to control the amount of land that's allocated for growth. I, I just don't
get that. But then that's not all. Nine years from now, eight and a half years from now, we're going
to add another 2000, 2100 acres to that. How are we going to stay within the 148 homes per year rate
that we apparently are subscribing to?
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES - JUNE 25, 2001
This is the ascertation of this Council. This is the ascertation of the, of the Comprehensive Plan.
How are we going to do it? And, I have a question I hope somebody can answer. Umm, when
approved, does this constitute rezoning of these properties? Because, it's dictated here, it's going to
be such and such residential or commercial. Is that a rezone? Can anybody answer that question?
MAYOR BERGESON: That is not a rezone. When you're done, we'll probably get some
general comments (inaudible). Go ahead.
MR. TREHUS: Okay, so rezoning would occur later. Is that a development right? You're
identifying that these lands in Zone 1 will be developed between now and the year 2010. After which
Zone 2 opens up. Looks like a development right to me. To come back to these people and say later
on, down the line, Well, you can't build here because, you know, we're past our 147 rate, there are
going to be some people that aren't going to be very happy with that. So, how are we going to deal
with that? How are we going to manage that? That's a question that should be addressed in the
Comprehensive Plan. If you're going to open up a huge area like that � e needs to be some sort of
strategy that's legal, that's binding, that you can hang your hat on say, is is how we're going to
deal with this. We got a population of 18,000 in our current A ,70,E acres, and it isn't filled
up yet. And, we're going to add 124 percent more to that? going to stay, the
Comprehensive Plan shows, final population, year 2020, s only 2,500 more people than
we've got right now. How are we going to do that over 19 ars x'` that land mass?
I don't get it. And, I wish somebody could expl
see some legal precedence where that's happen
And, I'm sorry, I don't mean to get irate bu • '
tone of voice here.
Ahh, I have a document here. Thi
Task Force too. It is not only i
Plan Task Force was told, w
ahh, the City in 1998, " h
space in Lino Lakes." W
ho hat's going to happen. And, I'd like to
re in this country. Because, I don't see it.
onal issue for me. And, I apologize for my
d, I, this is what was told to the Comprehensive Plan
but during the development of the Plan, the Comprehensive
population at 20,500. There's a series of ads put out by,
y? Myth—residential growth will eventually use up all the open
the map. That's reality. That's all the open space in Lino Lakes,
used up, on the map. "Myt t ' City has nothing to say about it's future, the Metropolitan Council
has already planned the City . growth." Reality? That map looks just like the Met Council's map.
So, what's the myth and what's the reality? I'd have to say that, ahh, an objective look at the facts
here tells you what, which is which. It also states that there's going to be still 60 percent open space.
Well, why would we have a map like this if 60 percent open space? I don't understand that.
I told you before, I mentioned there was a letter, ahh, sent to the City from the DNR, talks about the
need to plan for environmental concerns. And, again, that is not addressed in the Comprehensive
Plan. And, I think that after approving a huge growth area like we're talking about, it's a little late to
try to go back to the drawing board. Come on, let's go to the drawing board now. That's what a plan
is suppose to be. A plan. This isn't a plan. This, all this is, is 200 pages, a vision document. And, it
says so in the letter read by the Mayor at the last meeting. Do we see this as a vision document? It's
a vision document and a map and a very dangerous proposition to be entering into.
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
Again, you guys, maybe you're knowing something you're not letting on. But, I really feel that you
owe it to the residents and people who are concerned about this to be up front and to have all these
details worked out ahead of time rather than taking the plunge and then hoping we can bandage this
thing up after the fact. It's a little late to try to do that then. People are, are going to be saying, hey,
you're, you're infringing on my rights here. You can't change your ordinances now. It's, it's going to
cost me money. Where are we going to be when we do that? We already opened up. We already
made commitments. This Plan, if nothing else, is a commitment to that level of development in the
City. It is. And all somebody, anybody can come by, any Council can come by and, and ask for more
MUSA and this Plan would drive it. This map drives a need for more than 359 acres.
Now, 359 acres in itself is an overage because we have over 400 acres of undeveloped
commercial/industrial and a land use demand in the Comp Plan of 200 acres. Twenty acres a year
times ten years. So, for the year 2010, we need 200 acres. We've got 400 right now, over 400 right
now. That's 200 acres out of the 359 that are overage. In addition to that, there's a 19 percent
overage. In addition to that we have, what, two years of homes in the �-s that weren't entered into
the calculations? If you add that all up, we had a land use of 56.4 ear, 564 acres for 10
years and, and 550 acres vacant land in the MUSA right now. y cel 'ach other out perfectly.
Add to that the fact that we are a past, or virtually past
MUSA, you can't demonstrate a need for MUSA base
stated in the Plan. So, if the Plan is going to be mad
out of its mouth, either you're going to have to b
we no longer commit to 147, and this is what w
back it down.
One of the things that the Comprehe
plan was that the inventory, and th
1999, would yield a Manageme
Plan would be amended to in
amended to (END OF T • E
ready. And, the need for
bers and these goals that are
doesn't talk out of both sides of the,
nt an say we no longer commit to 20,500,
to give you. Or, have to take the steps to
Force understood during the development of the
Inventory Management Plan were being conducted in
that would be appended to the Comp Plan. The Comp
use, I have to rephrase that line, Comp Plan would be
...to have this Plan adopte shy e end of 1998 and the timing did not allow for the Inventory and
Management Plan to be wor' d into the Comprehensive Plan at that time. Now, we didn't get a
Management Plan. We got a handbook for conservation development. This is a various tool. I've
spoken to a number of you on the Council and it's my opinion that you know the tool is there but,
umm, certainly we haven't put that tool to use. And, being one of the conditions of approval by the
Task Force of that map and this Plan was that there would be further definition of the greenways and
so forth with the inventory. That should be done now. The only reason it wasn't done at that time
was it couldn't have been done at that time. But, certainly we've had the Plan, we've had the
handbook for two years. We paid $60,000 for the inventory and the handbook and we should be
putting it to use rather than moving forward this Plan and not really understanding what's going on
with the inventory. The greenway system that's depicted here does not coincide with what's in the
handbook. So, we're failing, we're failing.
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
The City of Lake Elmo has a policy to preserve their rural character. They have a policy to do what
we say we want to do in our Comprehensive Plan but they actually have one that has validity and they
are opting against urban growth and they're going with other types of development. Now, developers
are making money, land owners are selling their land for profit, they're protecting the environment,
everybody comes out happy. I don't know why we wouldn't want to do that here. And, I certainly
don't know why we'd want to move forward with a Plan that doesn't provide for those things when
we know, when we have these tools available to us, we have this knowledge available to use, that
wasn't available 10 years ago. That we can do these types of things and preserve the very things that
we want to preserve.
Another concern I have, and this is kind of a side step, but, umm, we do have a notification ordinance.
If land use is being changed, and I think it's tied into the word "rezoning" so maybe there's a
technicality here but, but notification is suppose to go out to residences within a certain distance of a
land use change. And, I guess I question whether not, the City not sending out letters to anybody
who's land is near anything that's changed on that map, ahh, whether e. 's in conflict with the spirit
of the ordinance or with the letter of the ordinance. Certainly, I thi it's "^ onflict with the spirit of
the ordinance which is to send a letter out to make sure everybo se changes are being
planned because not everybody reads the Quad. In fact, I do` th v., many people do.
If you absolutely have to pass a Plan, you should at lea
acres of overage in the Comp Plan. But, that's 359 a
dangerous scenario. We don't have the greenway
questions and entanglements. If we need to mo
We could take out all references to the gro
that we've got 359 acres, we were reque
based on these parameters that are ou
concern that I think we should all
s out. Because, we have 359
ared to 2,500 acres here. And, that is a
rly • o' e, we have a lot, it leaves a lot of
with a Plan, we could take out the map.
e could simply send in the document saying
9 acres more MUSA bank, we'll put it where we want
an. And, that would eliminate a huge, huge
uld be point number one.
Point number two would be t + s e h . . sing goals. We've got a 147 year rate and if you guys truly
believe in a 147 rate and . ou trul ' t to live by the 147 rate, then what you do is, you take that total
of homes every year, so f . ! as such and such, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but
you'd add 147 each year u . o gh the years. And, then you'd look at our current home count. And,
when you get to the point w `` . e the goal, that number, that 147 keeps adding on every year, when you
get to that point where that year, in that year where we actually have fewer homes in the City than
what the 147 projects out to, that would be the point to add the 359 acres. Don't add, please, don't
add 2,500 acres right now. This is untried territory. This is completely risky. It has all kinds of
negative potentialities and it certainly does nothing to limit the growth that you say you want to limit.
The way it stands? Basically, it's a blank check, business as usual, and let the developers plan the
City. It's the way it's been going and that's basically more of the same. We can do better. We have
the knowledge. We have the tools and all we need to do is make an effort. Thanks.
MR. STADUM: Mr. Mayor and members of the Council. Ahh, my name is Raymond
Stadum and I live at 663 Andall Street. Mr. Mayor, you'd be gratified to know I probably don't have
that many remarks to make tonight even though I've caught my breath. But, I would like to read a
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
letter from one of my neighbors who's also on the Environmental Board, to enter that into the record ,
if I may. His name is Rod Kukonen, lives at 647 Andall Street. It's addressed to each of you, to all of
you: "A big concern about the proposed Comprehensive ...
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We did receive that letter. But, certainly, go ahead and read it.
MR. STADUM: Yea, okay, thank you. "A big concern about the proposed Comprehensive
Land Use Plan is the extensive MUSA expansion. I recently attended three land use and planning
workshops at the University of Minnesota, Earle Brown Center. There was plenty of discussion on
comprehensive plans by the faculty. The number one thing a comprehensive plan should accomplish
is to represent community values." He has that underscored. "If we could advance 20 years and see
what the City would look like under the current proposed plan, I don't think the values of the
community at large would be represented. One of our goals of the Environmental Board is to be more
proactive rather than reactive. Almost all of our time at meetings is spent reacting to development
proposals. We find many times we are engaged in a counter -punch di ue with some members of
the development community who are unwilling to preserve open s • ' e or $ tect environmentally
significant areas because they don't have to under these current ni` •r. ; ces. Itruly appreciate all
the time you've spent on this and I know how consuming the pr 'ect be. However, I fear
passing the Plan as it is without proper planning tools in p ce uld ep us in a reactive mode for
the next 20 years." And, that was the conclusion of his lett
I would like to make, as I said, just a few remark
been reflecting on what was said before and, an
people who take my position were not reali
I indicated to this individual that I'm re
about accelerating even what we mi
f. I 't have any prepared notes but I have
meone said, or suggested to me that, ahh,
t being realistic about this and growth. And,
ought most of us were, who were concerned
, outrageous development in, in Lino Lakes.
And, I'd like to place, if I coul • i larger context because I think some of us are inclined to
think what's happening in Li '. s is nd of unique. I mean, that is to say it is a phenomenon
unique to us that we have his ali a nt of forces. That we have on one side, we have what we think
an unresponsive Council aceless bureaucrats residing someplace, ahh, a Cabal of
individuals known as the ` o • • litan Council and we have commercial interests and we have large
property holders and develo s, and, everyone associated with and likely to profit from accelerated
growth. And then, on the other side, we have just impassioned citizens like myself. But, it's bigger
than that. And, if any of you have read the articles, the syndicated columns, and even a few of the
books that have been written on this subject, is a lot bigger than Lino Lakes.
Because, what's happening in Lino Lakes is replicated across this country. And, in a larger context,
even beyond that. And so while I was sitting at my desk the other day and I was thinking to myself,
speculating on what, what my father's generation and the men who fought that war to preserve liberal
democracies and representative government would have thought if 50 -odd years ago there'd been met
at the boats and said, would you believe that your children, one day, would hand over their rights,
their privileges, and their liberties to unelected governing boards? And, would you believe still
further that these governing board would extend one day to regional governing authorities? And, no
one will have elected those folks either? And that they will, they will make the decisions. The
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EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
decisions affecting the communities in which your children live and their grandchildren. They will
make the decisions ultimately by that notorious big "carrot" or the "stick" that will determine whether
or not you live in a green environment. Or, as one woman put it, a desert. The world has turned over
many times since that generation fought that big war for democracy and representative government.
We've added new and different and strange, even alien meaning to words that you can find in the
dictionary. And, those meanings they wouldn't understand. They know the words, but they don't
know the meanings any more. Like "diversity." Well, we thought it meant variability. Didn't we?
And, it's part of the American character. Isn't it? We're most of us all familiar with Ellis Island.
The waves of immigrants who fought their way to some kind of plurality and descent life. But, now
what does it mean? Now it seems to mask a hidden social and political agenda.
Or, you take the phrase, "the right to affordable housing." All right, that has a noble ring to it. It
certainly does. But, it's nothing knew. We all have believed in affordable housing and the right to it
provided you could afford it. Yea, the world has turned over many ti' ,k d it's happening all over.
You have the European Union and it's commission. It's faceless dividuals who are
involved in the use (inaudible) of sovereign people's rights and = s 'sibi ies. You have the World
Trade Organization which is stepping on legislation that soy ,=i_ F, ata. , their representatives have
passed to protect the environment. And, they're telling th . s that they can't do it and get
away with it. And now in this country, in each and eve c.`+ u + where this issue is faced, people
like yourselves, well meaning and intelligent people,l that, are backing down.
I was encouraged by something in this morning's paper 3` And, I'm certainly not going to read it all.
But, it's from Mayor Awada, she wrote in t w a yor of Eagan: "Housing policy decisions
should reflect a consensus of the majora .resse• through their elected representatives. In fact,
the whole point of having different i `' s to allow local variation and localized decision
making. Through uniqueness, we of community and provide choices for Minnesotans.
We should never dictate to oth , ' ey should zone and develop their communities and the
Metropolitan Council is atte o d." And, finally she says: "As Mayor, I lead and reflect the
desires of my residents. ake th s'on that is formed by consensus and implement it, even when it
makes enemies of those e with that vision." And I, she didn't say it, but I would imagine
that would even entail ene s o had some power and leverage. She would still do the right thing.
In closing, I'm reminded of something a man by the name of Andre Mulroe(sp?), a political activist
and journalist said, now deceased. He said, "history is made by those who say 'no.' It's not made by
people who just bend at the knee." It's made by people who said no. Like those people who said it in
Boston Harbor, at Lexington Concord, on the North Bridge. And, it would seem Mayor Pat Awada in
Eagan knows how to say no. God bless her. Thank you.
MAYOR BERGESON: Thank you. Is there someone else?
MS. DONLIN: I was hoping I wouldn't have to follow Ray Stadum because, umm, poor
speaker, with laryngitis, following that is just unbearable. But, I'm Amy Donlin. I live at 6100
Centerville Road.
13
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
And, I don't have a lot to say but I'm going to relate this Plan to an oil painting. And, I do some oil
painting myself. And, I was taught early on that many layers make a beautiful painting. And, you
start with thin layers and you work up to the painting little by little with little bits of little bits and
pretty soon you've got a finished product. And, I was taught also that when your painting starts to get
bad, when something is going wrong with it and you can't get back on track, that's the time that you
take the canvass and you throw it in the fire or you, you, um (inaudible) Gesso over it and start fresh.
And, I think it's at that point, that I would like to see us throw the canvass aside, or parts of it anyway.
And, umm, I just see too many discrepancies in the numbers. I think that Mike was right that we are
talking out of both sides of it. We're saying we are going to limit our growth, yet we're opening up the
doors to just a lot of, a lot of trouble with developers. We've all seen it. People who've been involved
with City Hall for a few years have seen the developers, people who land and hope to develop it
someday, see this as a blank check and an opportunity to develop and a promise that later on they will
be allowed that privilege of, of being rezoned. Because, to me, this says, "we will rezone you, Zones
1 and Zones 2. You will get your promise of medium or low density, sewered residential or industrial
or what ever it is." This, to me, is a promise, just from my experience ;,' here at City Hall for the
past 15 years or something.
I also want to say that I think the City has a responsibility to
number. And, I think we were doing with little bits of lay
working on these plans and we've been paying lots of " one
that, umm, we had a number. To me it's 20,500 resi
number and that was the number that I thought w �r<...ro
residents, wanted to maintain a nice rural ambi
keep the population in check.
We didn't want to be Roseville, nor d'
space around us. Like what Conni
about Lino Lakes are the ecosy
like so much about it, hearin_ "'`+gs
rabbits even when they're ating
cities don't any more. Th
they've had all kinds of ad
beautiful, wonderful, speci
ation and cap it off at "X"
these years we've been
good solid product. And, I think
e year 2020. Not to exceed that
ed not to exceed because we, the
in one way other. And, part of that was to
e Woodbury. Umm, we wanted to have some
as as (inaudible) is that, the things that love so much
healthy little communities of plants and animals. That we
night, or seeing the stars at night, or, umm, seeing deer or
owers. And, just those nice little things that we have that other
they've been chased out, they've been smashed on the roads,
s. And, I think we still have an opportunity to maintain those
alues here.
And, now I'd like to go on to point out a couple of things about the greenways that are shown on the
map here. I know that in my little corner of Lino Lakes, down in the southeast corner, there are some
problems with the map. We talked on, a little bit about spot zoning. I'm not going to speak about the
commercial corner of Centerville Road and County Road J. That's not my turf anymore. But, what I
am going to speak about is the spot zoning, Zone 2, that is on the east part of Lake Amelia...I don't
know if you want me to point at it or, umm, the sewer would have to get to it somehow and all I'm
saying is that it would have to leap -frog right across our property to get to it, nearly a half a mile.
And, I'm not ready to bear the burden of some developer's sewage expenses to get a development. So,
that is one area that I think is a problem.
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seconded the motion. Motion carried unan ��x•u -
EXCERPT OF COUNCIL MINUTES JUNE 25, 2001
Another area is also on our property. It's zoned, umm, on the map here, low density sewered
residential. But that property has been committed to the Minnesota Land Trust which is a
commitment from us and it will be backed up legally by them that that will never be developed. And,
it certainly won't be sewered. So that is shown as sewered.
And, also, there are three areas here shown as greenways that are clearly lakes of 200 acres in size or
greater. And, I think that that's misleading. That would be Otter Lake, Lake Amelia, and Cedar Lake.
They're all designated on the map as greenways and they should be blue, they're water. And, and if
we do want linked greenways, if we wanted to have valid good greenways, we'd have to link them.
We can't just put pockets of green here and there because they aren't going to go 100 miles to get the
groceries. They need to be contiguous. They need to be linked and I think that that was all
represented in the, umm, document that our Environmental Board and the citizens on the
Environmental Task Force worked real hard to get. A contiguous greenspace plan so that eventually
we'd link them with walking paths or not walking paths, maybe just for wildlife passage. But, we did
want them to be actually, umm, viable as habitats and they aren't as th and. You can't, can't
disconnect them like they are. So, I'm just asking, there are certai he Comp Plan that I
would like us to paint over them with white and start fresh. Th
MAYOR BERGESON: Okay. Anybody else that
tonight? Anybody else which to speak? Okay. Then,
public hearing.
ance to speak last week or
accept a motion to close the