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HomeMy WebLinkAbout06-30-81 CCMCITY OF LAKE ELMO, MSA PROJECT PUBLIC HEARING, JUNE 30, 1981 Mayor Eder opened the hearing at 8 p.m. Councillors in attendance: Novak, Morgan, Mottaz and Fraser. Also Administrator Whittaker and Engineer Bohrer. Engineer Bohrer reviewed the project, the variance request for 30 mph curves, estimated costs and MSA funding. General Comments on the Project Dave Storholm Asked what needs to be done to make the road line up 5240 Keats with the section line. Engineer Bohrer Said the present road generally lies to the west of the section line and consideration is being given to putting it exactly on the section line. This detail is usually worked out during the final plan review. Cost estimates are based on realigning the road and the least expensive approach will be followed.. Dave Storholm Asked about paving the existing road; less costly. Engineer Bohrer Can pave road as it exists today - have an option. Consideration of the impact on both sides of the road would be given and a decision of which would have the least impact on property owners on either side. R. Menz 5615 Keats Asked how far off center Keats is. Engineer Bohrer It is worst at 36. The section line is very close to the east side of the road. About 10 ft. off center at this point; by the time it reaches 47th St. it is about right on the line. At no point is it too far to the east. Recent certificates of survey for property in this area have the property description going to the section line. Surveys he has seen show a 33 ft. road easement off of the section line. Even tho the road may be mis- placed there may still be an easement. Ron Kane Asked about the cost to individual property owners. 5010 Keats Engineer Bohrer Have computed it a number of different ways. Will address later in the hearing. Chuck Meyer Aeked if the City would need additional property other than the 33 ft. easement included in the survey. Engineer Bohrer Depending on the terrain sometimes additional temporary f easements may be necessary in order to make the slope. Estimates for compensation has been included in the project. Also the public has a right or easement over the road as it is presently aligned the right of the Public meanders with the road. _2_ Steve Raleigh Asked if the road were improved.a.s-.it..i.s right now 5055 Keats would all the described 33 ft easements be adjusted ( so that the easement was from the center of the road and not the section line. Because it would end up being a more permanent road. Engineer Bohrer It would be the intent to cleanup the right-of-way issue so that it is clear to everybody. From an engineering standpoint the road could be built right on the section line or could be built closely to what it is now. would be willing to work with the property owners and whichever has the least impact -work it out that way. The road could have slight angles in it to help line it up at Highway 36. There is an area adjacent to the lake on the Eleanor Raleigh property that is low and if the road gets shifted slightly to the east this would take quite a bit of fill to make a safe slope off of the road. Eleanor Raleigh How wide is the road going to be, including the shoulders. 5193 Keats Engineer From the edge of the gravel shoulder to the edge of the other gravel shoulder would be 32 ft wide. The present road varies from 22 to 24 ft. wide. Catherine Crocker Asked about old culverts along the road and if they 5093 Keats would be replaced. Engineer Culverts under driveways would be replaced only if they are deteriorated or undersized. Do plan to replace all the culverts that cross the road; but if the driveway culvert still functions and is not undersized it would not be changed routinely. Herb Crocker If widening the road 4-5 ft would mean many of the culverts will have to be moved, because the ditch will be in a different place. Engineer Then they would be replaced. A number of culverts have been figured in the prices. Steve Raleigh Questioned the success ratio in asking and receiving a variance from the State on not only the 30 mph curves but variances in general. How has the State responded to these. Engineer The variance: -is new since the first of 1981. Prior to this, the State Aid Engineer had a certain latitude of his own to make these kinds of discretionary judgements. He no longer has this ability. A committee has been set up. Bohrer reported on a 2 ft road variance he was granted. He said several variances have been granted for road width on urban type streets. Steve Raleigh Questioned the width of the clear-cut area. Noted 150 trees would be removed including 50 that would require the stumps grubbed out. He felt the clear-cut area was excessive for a residential street. Suggested this is upgrading the road to something similar to a major artery. -3- Steve Raleigh- And,feels this exceeds the needs of the community and the neighborhood. Engineer Rohrer — Defined the clearcut area; and stated that safety is the primary reason for the clearcut area. The area is determined by the number of cars that drive on the road per day. The Engineer said he has had no experience in asking for a variance to reduce a clear- cut area as it is a safety issue. He explained the required slope area to Mr. Raleigh, stating the area near the lake would benefit most by keeping the road on .its present alignment. Dave Storholm — Asked what impact all.the land presently in Green Acres would have on the financing of the project. ]lhgineer Bohrer — Explained the assessment procedure for Green Acres property. Asses— sments are not exempt, only deferred. The City will have to determine how project costs will be paid until such time as Green Acre property owners pay their share. Chuck Meyer — Asked if the .road is brought up to State standards twill it not then meet the standards of a County road. Engineer Bohrer— Traffic is the determining factor. As traffic increases the .road gets wider.. City road standards also have to be met for width. The City does not intend to have Keats serve as a County road. The Engineer indicated where a proposed north/south County col— lector has been discussed. Chuck Meyer — questioned the possibility of Keats continuing south and hooking up with 914. Mayor Eder — The road plan referred to by Mr. Meyer was a 19 % proposal and -is not in existence today. Present plans do not indicate Keats as a north/south County collector. Chuck Meyer — Asked if the City could turn down the project and still use the $215,Oo-a,k1n state money to build -a lesser road. Engineer Bohrer — T*plained the process of qualifying for State money and how it must be used Don Moris — At 45th and Julep, how far would the road move NW for the curve. Engineer. Bohrer— Presently square corner; would need .35A on each corner. If the curve variance is not granted the City would have to dsoids if they want to do the project with State Aid funds. With 40 mph curves, one acre would be needed. Steve Raleigh — Asked if streets, other than those designated on the map, could qualify for State Aid money, could the designation be changed. Ihgineer Bohrer— Outlined other streets witTain the City that are State Aid roads. He indicated that not all these streets are in the 12 year program . Other routes can be designated but criteria states the State Aid ( route mii.st connect two other high use routes. -4- Steve Raleigh — Asked if the City can invent a need for a street that does not exist, and designate that for State Aid.. Engineer Bohrer— Yes, provided a designation is removed from another street and a plan developed for a future street. The intent of the Council was and is to improve present unimproved streets. Karin Schubert — Asked the status on the proposed north south County Noad? 5222 Keats Engineer Bohrer— The proposal has 11ot been abandoned, officially. Because of financial cut—baokq the present County plan is to ma3:ntai.n present roads and not plan to construct new ones. Engineer Bohrer explained the financing proposal for the project, based on a per lot assessment. 'Phis would include present and future lots and includes only property that abuts the road. The 12 year program includes about 125 lots, based on present zoning, or about $2,000 per lot, This method will better insure money will be available to improve other State Aid streets in the program. Don Moris — Questioned the difference between using all MSA funds on the project vs retaining maintenance funds and the percentage assessed property owners will have to pay. Engineer Bohrer— 19'1/O of the present project would be assessed., or 890,000. Don Nbris — Asked how the City proposes to discount the inflated dollars over the next ten years. Engineer Bohrer— The City is assuming that the allotments will increase in the same proportion as construction costs increase. The figure will have to increase with inflation as the other streets in the future are included. Don Moris — Asked i.ftonly the properties that abut the new road will be assessed the 02,000. Rigineer. Bohrer— Yes, or those which would abut the new road. He reviewed a map and clarified the definition of lot. Don Mor.is — Is approximately 1./2 mile off of. 45th St, N.; will he be assessed since his property does not abut the .road, Engineer Bohrer— Said this will have to be determined by the Council. Any assessments will be assessed based upon benefit, fie explained Pm. Moris was sent a- notice: lbeoduse-hls ?access is onto 145th Street. The Engineer is not familiar with the procedure of assessing property that does not directly abut a street, or how this situation. has been. handled in the past. Dorothy Ziertman— Asked about subdividing lots under the powerline. The Engineer 10193 60th Street said he would have to look at the property to determine how many lots can be divided out of the parcel. L.E. Whittaker — Administrator Whittaker explained that the City Council has not: discussed how the assessment formula will apply to each property. Unique situations along each of the proposed roads will have to be dealt with by the Council. -5— Don Moris — Feels the biggest concern of the property owners is the cost. Z. Whittaker — Stated the proposed assessment formula is the best alternative, the most reasonable to each property owner. Jim Blackford — Comparedhis and Moris' situation to that of residents back off 9765 45th St. of 47th and Keats and asked how they would be assessed. Engineer Bohrer— Noted that the two property owners off of Oth have not been included in the roster. If the formula were applied to Blackford and Moris it would also have to apply to the properties off of 47th. A decision will need to be made. Herb Crocker -• Asked if the Payne parcel is not a, like situation. Engineer Bohrer_ 5093 Keats said under present zoning,Paynes only have one lot until such time as they put in a public street and subdivide. This will have to be discussed during the assessment considerations. Eleanor Raleigh— Asked for a clarification of assessing Green Acres property. 5193 Keats Engineer Bohrer explained the deferred assessment, interest payment, etc. No interest rate has been determined. He determined Mrs. Raleigh would have about five lots. Mfrs. Raleigh stated she would like to have Keats remain as.. t..is. Dave Storholm — Asked is there is any estimates on traffic after the improvement. Engineer Bohrer— Is not sure the improvement would generate more traffic. General projection is that in 20 ,years the traffic would double. Don Moris — Opposses the project based on the information that is available. Ha.feels the property owners should know what the cost will. be before the project is ordered,. And questioned the legality of assessing a property owner living 1/2 mile off a road with no property abutting the road. Mary Kane Wants to know the costs and the maximum assessment per lot. 5010 Keats Mayor Eder — This is a proposed method. The Council wants to keep the cost at or below that which is proposed. If the numbers would get too high. the bids would be rejected. Engineer Bohrer— Is confident with the cost estimates for the project, The item to be decided. is the method of how the share not paid by the State will be distributed. The per lot method seemed the most equitable for the property owners. Eleanor Raleigh— The 120' slope near the lake is all on her property. It is all wooded and will change the entire outlook of the property„ Chuck Meyer. — Stated the City could up —,wade the present road and not use any State Aid money and assess the property owners for the entire project. This could end up costing much more than is proposed. Mayor Eder — .Asked Mr. Meyer, if his father would be receptive to discussing locating the road more westerly onto his property, thus avoiding removal of all the trees along the Raleigh property. -H- Ron Dane - Asked if anything could be done to avoid removing so many trees along^ the Crocker and Raleigh property, Possibly putting up a barrier rather than graduating the slope, Engineer Bohrer.- Talked to the State about constructing a barricade rather than the slope and they indicated this is not an alternative to a safe slope, The only alternative would be to move the road to the west. Steve Raleigh - Asked if the traffic count was measured with or without the Foxfire gate open. He feels if the gate is closed the traffic will double on Yeats. Bhgineer Bohrer- Said, three different traffic counts have been taken from 1978 to 819 before the Foxfire development was there, and all the counts are about the same. Don Moris - Stated the readings should indicate a notic able change due to all the building in the area during the past three years. Mel Eder - Since the road is used for public purposes, why not use public 4890 beats funds for its construction. Why should just the people who live on -the road. make up the difference. Jim Blackford - The problemlis,,the coud indicates 200 cars although there are not 200 residences, Many people using the road will not pay for it. Landowners are paying for a road utilized by others. L, Whittaker - Responded to this remarko. stating the State of Minnesota will pay for approximately 80"/0 of the road, if this were a City street residents would pay 90% to 100% rather than 201yo, The public is sharing in the cost, Engineer Bohrer- Said the general basis for this improvement is maintenance. Gravel roads are much more costly to maintain. The City adopted a policy to upgrade gravel roads as money became available or the need required upgrading. Mary Slawson - Has a wildlife pond they dug next to the road. Questioned if this can be taken because of the road. This was done by and through the DER following their standards and requirements. Mayor Eder - Said this will be a consideration, Steve Raleigh - Asked about the agricultural fencing being moved. The Engineer noted it will have to be moved back 27 ft. The cost of this has been figured into the project. Dave Storholm - Opposes the project. Catherine Crocker- Lives close to the road. Ilas favored the project; but is concerned about the location. Iithe road is not built futher to the west .;they stand to loose their front yard,j.f built as proposed. Doris Buberl - When she built her house five years ago asked about any plans 5545 I{eats to move the road. At that time she was told no, consequently if built as proposed will be in her front yard. Mayor Eder - Explained that if the road is built in place there should not be much difference than as the road exists today. Doris Buberl - Opposes the project, Many cars going by her home now; once black - topped concerned that the road wi.].1 become a race track. -7- Judy Blackford - Asked the reasoning for the curved corners,,if safety is factor. Engineer Bohrer- Explained the requirements. Ron Kane - Asked if there are any built-in costs for replacement of trees and shrubs in the clear. -cut area. The Engineer said no but this can be considered, Steve Raleigh - Asked about plans for stop signs at Keats and 147th, - Keats will probably have the stop sign. Karin Schubert: - questioned the high speed curves around L45th, Julep, and h7th. Ehgineer Bohrer said the difference is that there are no other intersection roads on 145t4 Julep and 147th such as at Keats and 47tb, Steve Raleigh -. Asked. about the current condition of Lake Jane Trail. Will l45th remain 45th, or become Lake Jane '.Frail, 45th will remain 145th. Questioned an improvement should this project not be ordered, but a petition for improvement from Lake Jane Trail residents be submitted. Could an improvement be ordered without the consent of adjacent land owners along the proposed route. He anticipates this in the futu39e should the MSA project not be ordered. L. Whittaker - Said a petition for such an improvement would not necessarily mean a project would be initiated. Such a, petition would. make the Council aware that residents in the area desire the improvement. Dave Storholm - Commented on the benefit of this project to the area and the residents who live along Keats, 47th, Julep and 45thi and -the impact this project would have on the area and the residents. Mayor Eder - Asked .f'or a response from the audience as to their.position on the improvement. Ronald Kane - Favors the project. Jim Blackford - Wants firm cost estimates before making a derision and also whether he would be assessed, Based on a $2,000 assessment he favors the improvement. Steve R,)leigh - Opposes the project for the following reasons: 1. Courting disaster in up -grading the road as it is so much larger than -the immediate needs of the neighborhood and the greater neighborhood and will eventually become a County road., and eventually become a major north south feeder in the City. 2. Thinks it will drastically change the character of the neighborhood. 3, By eliminating the gravel road, the last deterent for extreme speed will be removed. 14. Create a drastic change in the landscape by removing 150 trees. 5. The road as proposed is fax greater, larger, wider than is necessary and too high a weight load. Karin Schubert - Opposes the project. Changes the landscape along Keats drastically. Uady Raleigh -m Opposes the project Mary Kane - Favors the project; Mary See poses the Vro Hobert mid 'Dorothy Ziertman - Oppose the project Mayor Mer closed the hearing at 9:50 n.m. i 0 1/-2 Y�;--Gt S-t. Norte ff ./gyp, 4(f964w.AU J 01 T3 � 07; IV , rsr S(o lS S A+5 i SL Z Z Qwe . d� T2-