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LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES
NOVEMBER 19, 1985
Mayor Morgan called the City Council meeting to order at 7:02 p.m.
in the City Council Chambers. Present: Armstrong, Dunn, Mazzara,
Christ, City Administrator Overby, City Engineer Bohrer, and City
Attorney Knaak.
1. Agenda
4E. Derrick Land Fill Permit Request, 4F. Lake Jane Pumping and
Sunfish Park, 7A. Joint Meeting between the Planning Commission
and City Council, 7B. Composting, 8C. Maintenance Employee
Recommendation, and 8D. Christmas Party Roster.
M/S/P Morgan/Armstrong - to approve the agenda for the November
19, 1985 City Council Meeting as amended. (Motion carried 5-0).
2. Minutes - November 5, 1985
M/S/P Dunn/Mazzara - to approve the November 5, 1985 City Council
Minutes as amended. (Motion carried 5-0).
3. Claims
M/S/P Christ/Mazzara - to approve claims 86672 thru 86717 as
presented. (Motion carried 5-0).
4. CITY ENGINEER'S REPORT
A. 201 Program: Consider Bids for Emergency
Septic Systems
A week ago ten invitations for bids were sent out to local
contractors for installation of the four septic tanks for the
people that are on the satellite toilet faciities. The deadline
for bids were 2:00 p.m. today and no bids were submitted. Bohrer
contacted several contractors and found that the reason they did
not submit a bid was because they had enough work under contract
already and were trying to finish this work before freeze up.
Bohrer suggests that they put hay or straw bales to insulate the
areas where the tanks are to go which would give us more time.
Estimated cost is below $10,000 so Bohrer will expand his search
area out of Washington County and contact some of the contractors
that have done good work for us before and try to solicit quotes
from them. Bohrer asked if the City Council would give authority
to award the quote to the City Administrator which will save some
time rather than waiting until the December 3rd Council Meeting
for approval.
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 2
M/S/P Christ/Armstrong - to grant permission for the City
Administrator to award the bid for the four septic tank
installations. (Motion carried 5-0).
B. Shoreland Permit: Request from
Ronald W. Nelson, 4565 Olson Lake Trail
Mr. Nelson is proposing to construct an addition onto his existing
home at 4565 Olson Lake Trail. Since this lot abuts Olson Lake,
Shoreland Regulations apply. This new addition will not
physically interfere with the location of the existing septic
system. A new bedroom will be added in the new addition, but the
applicant plans to eliminate one bedroom in the existing house and
turn it into a den. There should be no net effect on the septic
system.
Bohrer stated that no variances are required, but recommends that
the permit approval be conditioned on the elimination of one
existing bedroom so that the addition will have no effect on the
septic system.
M/S/P Christ/Dunn - to approve the shoreland permit for Ronald
Nelson at 4565 Olson Lake Trail on the condition stated by Larry
Bohrer in his letter dated November 14, 1985. (Motion carried
5-0).
C. Final Plat Approval: Tartan Meadows
2nd Addition, Willard Morton
The first addition has been completed and now Mr. Morton has
submitted a final plat for the second addition. There are no
significant changes from the original 1981 plat; therefore, a new
preliminary plat is not required.
A temporary cul-de-sac is required at the west end of 12th street
to allow vehicles and snow plows to turn around. A permanent
easement will be required for this cul-de-sac. If 12th Street is
extended west in the future, this cul-de-sac will be removed and
the permanent easement vacated.
The Planning Commission had asked if this cul-de-sac could be
Class 5 rather than tar, but Bohrer recommended that it be
blacktopped because it will be there for an indefinite period of
time. For example, in Foxfire the cul-de-sac.s have been in
service for six years and only one of them is just being extended
and eliminated now.
City Engineer Bohrer recommends that the final plat for Tartan
Meadows 2nd Addition be approved, subject to the addition of the
permanent roadway easement as described above.
Bohrer advised that after Mr. Morton executes the Developer's
Agreement, furnishes the required security, and furnishes the
easements for the cul-de-sac, the City Administrator and the Mayor
may sign the plat and allow it to be recorded.
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 3
M/S/P Armstrong/Christ - to adopt Resolution 85-42 approving the
Final Plat for Tartan Meadows 2nd Addition contingent upon Larry
Bohrer's recommendation stated in his letter to the Planning
Commission dated November 7, 1985. (Motion carried 5-0).
D. County 19B - Request by Dick Herald to
discuss project with the Council
Dick Herald, Washington County Engineer, and Donald Wisniewski,
Public Works Director were before the City Council with plans for
realignment of County Road 19B. The County is now in the final
design stages of this project and is ready to purchase
right-of-way. Because of finance shortages, the staging of
construction has changed slightly. The grading will be done in
1986 and the pavement construction is scheduled for completion in
1987.
Wisniewski noted<that in 1984 a state law was passed which allows
counties to assess within the city boundaries if the city is in
agreement with it. However, when the law was written an oversight
in the definitions within the body of the law was made which will
prevent the County from making these assessments until this
discrepancy is corrected during the next legislative session. In
the meantime, they asked the City to consider either joining with
the County as a joint project, or to pass a resolution allowing
the County to assess these costs, which at this point is the only
way these assessments can be made.
There is some benefit to the City because of the fact that it does
open up some lands on either side of County Road 19B for future
development. The percent for assessing benefits that was
discussed was 10 percent.
There is one property owner, the Hammes', that Washington County
made a settlement on right-of-way where it was in agreement to not
assess that property. In fairness, they would have to put an
assessment on that property and the County or City would have to
say no assessments on it and take it off the cost reimbursement.
The City Council felt that this construction is being done
primarily to access the Regional Park and they do not see the
benefit to the City at this time. The Council asked the City
Attorney, City Administrator and Planning Commission to research
the subject and provide recommendations or discussion with the
County at a Council meeting in January.
E. Derrick Land - Fill Permit Request
This is a continuation from the November 5, 1985 City Council
Meeting. The proposal is to remove about the top foot of existing
soil in the front yards of four lots in DeMontreville Highlands
3rd Addition. The plan shows the fill soil that will be brought
in as an acceptable area for septic system constructon which would
be filled to a height of elevation 979 which will be the same in
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 4
all four cases.
One of the concerns of the City Council was the visual impact of
the neighborhood, so Bohrer asked the applicant to shoot with an
engineers level the elevation of the street and then the existing
houses that are around the area to get a comparison. The new
front yards that are proposed to be filled are approximately 7
feet above the street level. The elevation is 979 at the top of
the hill areas and above elevation 972 in the street. Comparing
that with the existing house immediately to the north, the garage
floor is 979.4 which is 7.4 feet above the street. On Lot 5 the
garage at 978.9 is about 7 feet above street level. On Lot 4 the
garage would be 10.9 feet above street level and first floor 12.2
feet above street level. On Lot 3 the garage is 7.7 feet above
street level and the first floor is 12.6 feet above street level.
Bohrer stated that from an elevation standpoint, it would appear
that the front yards of these lots would not be higher than the
front yards of the developed lots.
John Hartman, Lot 1 across the street, stated that the elevation
is dramatically different and his elevation goes up only slightly
to the street. Lot 1 and Lot 2 both have houses that would be
right along the street level.
Andy Rolling, lot 4 directly across from the lots, has a setback
of 150-160 feet back from the road.
Dave McCall, Lot 3, has a 150 foot setback from the road. F
Bohrer stated that the setback distance necessary for the house to
stay out of this proposed fill on the septic system for Lot 3
would be at least 120 feet back from the curbline. Mr. Gary
Bance's house is 76 feet back from the right-of-way and about 90
feet from the curbline. Mr. Bance expressed that the garage is
north of the slab, but a section of the slab is in the front so
this would be 100 feet from the curbline.
The applicant has proposed to keep the lot levels low enough to
pass any drainage from the back yard out into the street. There
is no filling or grading proposed in the rear of the lots. It
appears from the contours that going east of these lots, which is
DeMontreville 6th Park, the land does slope away and there is a
large culvert under Highlands Trail and goes to a pond. A
statement was made that water runs across these lots and it
appears that some may generate from the backyards of these other
lots, but it doesn't appear that it could run from the park across
Lots 1 and 2. The visual impact of the existing houses slope
somewhat uniformly from the street. The landscaping would not be
done until the houses are built. The top soil would be stripped,
fill hauled in, and top soil placed back over the prepared areas.
Bohrer advised that the soil which would account for the treatment
area would be hauled in, and he has looked at the soil and it
appears to be adequate. The final test is in the spring when they
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 5
would have to perform percolation tests and soil borings to make
sure that the water level stays where the applicant thinks it
will. The natural ground of the four lots appeared to be filled
during the subdivision process.
Andy Rolling presented documentation voicing the neighbors'
concern about the safety and suitability of these four lots to
accept such a system. Bohrer advised that a definiton of a mound
is a treatment bed in an elevated location where just a minimum of
1 foot of sand is required under this bed and it can be within 2
feet of the groundwater table. Mounds as defined by the City code
are not permitted in a first time installation. They are only
allowed for a replacement system. The code does allow the adding
of fill to provide the separation from the groundwater table, and
after a settling period and proper testing, a. conventional trench
type drainfield is allowed to be constructed in this type of first
time installation.
Christ - the area was a swamp at one time and this individual
bought it, filled it in with hopes that he could take swamp land
and make it buildable, but it didn't work. He suggests Derrick
dig it out and put the correct fill in.
Armstrong - doesn't feel that there is any way that water can seep
through it because it is a swamp unless possibly a seal can be
broken.
Gary Bance - what they are showing on the plot is actually level
with the back of his yard. Then they are showing a slight slope
coming down the side on the otherside of the lot so the water is
running down there and hitting a level spot for 125 feet. But then
they are taking it out between the next two lots, and he has
doubts as to how well that is going to work. His backyard right
now is a bog because he has areas that do not have enough
drainage. Bance would like some kind of assurance if he gets
water problems because of this additional fill that such problems
would be corrected.
Bohrer was asked if this would be a safe corner. He hasn't
reviewed it specifically for it being a safe corner, but there is
a stop or yield sign there. The fill would not be in any line of
sight for traffic. Thera is about a 247 boulevard with no fill on
the boulevard and a 10' or 12' utility easement beyond that.
Bohrer - it cannot be determined at this time what the floor
levels of these houses will be.
Kurt Laughinghouse, Derrick Land - The slopes that are proposed
are very gentle and not the same as across the street, but they
are similar to those on the east side of the street. The sharpest
slope is on the south side of Lot 4 where they have a drainage
swale proposed, and that slope is a 3 to 1 slope so that it can be
mowed with a riding lawn mower.
Dunn - if you pulled out some of the existing soil that you
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 6
already put in there and brought in suitable soil for the
drainfield and keep the elevations down, wouldn't this be more
acceptable. Bohrer said this had been discussed and a question
arose if you dug through the bad soil could you get rid of the
water, and it appeared to the soil scientist and Derrick that this
would be the most feasible alternative. Laughinghouse stated they
could not get the separation of 5 feet from the groundwater so
they are limited in most cases to only a foot of the top soil.
City Engineer has the following recommendations:
1. The work should be done and the fill placed in accordance
with the letter that we received from soil test dated
November 1, 1985 which is a detailed explanation of the
fill procedures.
2. Roger Johnson from Soil Test be present when this work
begins and at various stages while the work is
progressing.
3. City Engineer Bohrer will make periodic site visits.
M/S/P/ Morgan/Armstrong - 4. If these lots are determined not to
be buildable, Derrick Land Company will restore the lots to the
original condition as when the plat was accepted by the City.
(Motion carried 5-0).
5. The site be filled in accordance with the grading plan
that has been submitted.
M/S/P Morgan/Mazzara - to approve the Derrick Land Fill Permit for
Lots 1, 2, 3 and 4 in Block 2, 3rd Addition of Demontreville
Highlands. (Motion carried 3-2<Christ,Dunn2).
Armstrong - Her reason for voting for it was based on the City
Engineer's viewpoint that this would work and because she has a
lot of confidence in City Engineer Bohrer.
F. Lake Jane Pumping and Sunfish Park
Dick Murray, Secretary of the VBWD, advised the City Council that
they have been pumping Lake Jane all summer long. On May 3, 1985
they have installed a bigger pump and this pump has only been shut
off for ten minutes since this date. During this time, Lake Jane
has gone from flood elevation 924 to 926.5 in mid -summer and now
the lake is at 924.5.
The agreement with the City was to turn the pump off on November
14, 1985 or when there was significant snowfall that would allow
cross-country skiing or when City Park Pond reached an elevation
of 912 feet. Last Saturday City. Park Pond reached this elevation
and has been coming up at a rate of 2 inches a month for the past
three months. Because of the high water that is on Lake Jane and
the prospect of additional flooding when we get our spring snow
melt, VBWD would like to continuetooperate the pump as far as
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 7
into the winter as they can.
Mr. Murray, Sue Dunn and Arlyn Christ visited Sunfish Park and
found two locations where the pumping activity is causing a
problem wih the cross-country skiing. One spot is where the
waters flow into City Park Pond from upstream and the other is a
low area on the eastern end. Mr. Murray and Councilman Christ had
figured out that they could install some pipes and cover over
these channels with earth and restore the ski trails to their
original condition.
Pumping through the winter would depend on what the pump
manufacturer recommends regarding what would happen to this
equipment if they had a power outage or failure of the pump.
A recommendation from the Parks Commission was to close Sunfish
Park in its entirity due to the impact on the.trails and the
safety concerns. Even if it is closed at the gate, snow fence
should be around some of the lower trails and keep the higher
trails opened.
The City Council felt it was too early to decide to close Sunfish
Park, but a possible compromise could be made. A suggestion was
made to pump another 2 or 3 inches until December 15, 1985 and
review it at that time. In the meantime they will install the
culverts and the necessary warning signs and snow fence. The VBWD
does have some extra 8 inch pipe that could be used.
5. CITY ATTORNEY'S REPORT -
A. Municipal Administrative Procedures and
Legal Liability
The City Council. gave authorization for the City Attorney to work
with the City Administrator to develop a set of procedural
guidelines for use by the City Staff, Consultants, Council members
and Planning Commission members. These guidelines would clarify
the proper methods for the City to handle and respond to general
inquiries or specific requests for rezoning and variances.
B. Taylor-Mazzara Petition
City'Attorney Knaak advised the City'Council-of a 1965 Attorney
General opinion. The City's interest is not as a fee owner, but is
as the proprietor of a public interest so the City does not own
that. In order to vacate already designated property even though
it is not platted, the interested persons have to do two things.
One route is through District Court, and the indication is there
can be no vacation between lots, blocks, plats unless it appears
that the street or alley or part, thereof, sought to be vacated is
useless for the purpose for which it was laid out.
The preferred route is the petition to the City Council and
bypassing the Court. When a petition is made by a majority of
owners of land abutting the street that is sought to be vacated,
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 8
the City Council can by majority vacate provided that they find
that the vacation of that particular parcel is in the public
interest. Knaak could not find a definition of what a public
purpose is because there is.none, so it.would,lop a detepmination
on a case basis.
If the City vacates, the adjacent landowners own the fee under the
street subject to an easement. The City is giving up the easement
and the landowners get the full unrestricted use of the property.
Because it is specified in the deed, the full 33 foot easement is
over one parcel which belongs to Mr. Taylor.
City Attorney Knaak recommends to leave the matter as it stands
now because he does not see how the City's legal interests are
advanced in any way.
M/S/P Morgan/Armstrong - to accept the City Attorney's
recommendation to leave the matter as is. (Motion carried
4-0-1<Abstain-Mazzara>).
6. PLANNING AND LAND USE
A. Section 32 Land Use Concept Map
The Planning Commission has recommended that the City Council
approve the future land use map for Section 32/33. The terms have
been changed to be compatible with the future land use terms in
the comp plan. The 23 acres were added to the section of Highway
Commercial and a section of 17 acres was designated medium to high
residential and a section of 11 acres to office and commercial.
M/S/P Dunn/Morgan - to approve the Revised 11/85 Land Use Concept
Plan for Section 32 and West 1/4 Section 33 for the purpose of the
City Engineer's feasibility study. (Motion carried 5-0).
7. CITY COUNCIL REPORTS
A. Joint meeting between the City Council and the
Planning Commission
Rob Chelseth has been addressing the comp plan with the Planning
Commission. Councilwoman Armstrong suggests a combined meeting to
discuss the preliminary work of the comp plan. An agenda will be
set Up for a combined meeting on the third Monday in.January.
B. Composting
Councilman Dunn reported that the composting site was not open the
last scheduled weekend because of the snowfall. The question was
asked if this compost site should be opened another weekend to
make up for the lost weekend:. It was suggested to stay on the
original schedule and close the compost site November 17, 1985.
8. CITY ADMINISTRATOR'S REPORT
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MINUTES NOVEMBER 19, 1985 PAGE 9
A. Comparable Worth Study
City Administrator Overby handed out the Comparable Worth Study
and stated that we are on track with what the basic requirements
are according to the State law. The City Council will look over
this handout and call the City Administrator if they have any
questions.
B. Legion Pond Update
Mayor Morgan distributed a handout of calculations that he made
regarding the
pumping of water from Legion Pond. This report should be kept on
file and a copy given to the VBWD. The pumping ended on Sunday,
November loth, 1985 and the total decrease in water level as of
that day was 14.0 inches. The conclusion could be made based on
these calculations that the pond dropped right down and up to this
point it has not come up much.
City Administrator Overby advised that a request was made from
homeowners on Jamaca Court North if it would be possible to lower
the level of Beutel Pond. He has discussed this with the City
Engineer and Dan Olinger and this can be done if they meet the two
permit requirements and notify the DNR.
City Engineer Bohrer stated that it was found that the 4" plate on
Eagle Point was removed and this will be replaced.
C. Maintenance Employee Recommended
City Administrator Overby and Dan Olinger have looked at 40
applications and interviewed seven applicants for the Maintenance
position. Michael Bouthilet, Oakdale, was recommended to be hired
and to begin work on Monday, November 25, 1985. Mike has attended
the University of Wisconsin -River Falls studying Parks and
Recreation and Lakewood Community College where he studied truck
driving and air and water analysis.
D. Christmas Party Roster
The Christmas Party Roster was handed. out to the City Council for
them to review and to call the City Office with any additional
names. The Christmas party will start at 6:00 p.m. on Friday,
December 20, 1985 in the City Council Chambers.
M/S/P Dunn/Morgan - to adjourn the City Council Meeting at 9:46
p.m. (Motion carried 5-0).
Resolution 85-42 - Final Plat for Tartan Meadows 2nd Addition,
Willard Morton
CLAIMS TO BE APPROVED AT NOVEMBER 19, 1985 LAKE ELMO COUNCIL MEETING
86672
Gov. Training Service - Planning Seminar (6) people $
240.00
86673
MAMA - Bob Overby meeting
9.00
86674
MN Assn of Urban Municipalities - Bob seminar
40.00
86675
Gov. Training Service - planning seminar (1)
40.00
86676
First Nat'l Bank - 1983 Street Imp. bond payment
77,657.25
86677
City of North St. Paul - Animal control vehicle
150.00
86678
Lillie Newspapers - maint. worker ad
45.50
86679
Junker Sanitation
45.00
86680
Satellite Industries - flooded homes
74.29
86681
Planning & Development Services - Rob Chelseth 10/7 mtg.
122.50
86682
Binder Printing - Business cards Bob & Jim
80.00
86683
American Typewriter - office supplies & table
115.80
86684
Fire Engineering- Fire Dept. 3yr subscription
38.00
86685
Smoke Eater - Fire Dept. subscription
15.00
86686
PAIN Correctional Industries - Fire Dept. Printing
267.97
86687
General Communications - Fire Dept. misc. supplies
10.08
86688
Fran Pott - Chief's Conference in Duluth
229.50
86689
Kunz Oil Co. - Fire Dept
33.60
86690
Lake Elmo Oil - Fire Dept. $ 67.28
Maint. 59.06
126.34
86691
Yocum Oil Co. - Maint. Dept. drums
348.64
86692
Wash. County - Signs installed $ 317.46
Grading - 4.5 hrs 164.25
481.71
86693
Truck Utilities - Maint. Dept. Warning light for truck
120.00
86694
Lakeland Ford - Maint. Dept. truck repairs
44.68
86695
Boyer Trucks - Maint. Dept. truck parts
106.14
86696
Road Machinery & Supplies - Truck parts
209.75
86697
ABM - Maint truck parts
46.07
86698
MCI Airsignal - Maint. radio
24.00
86699
T. A. Schifsky - MC mix
33.22
86700
Hagberg's - Maint misc supplies
24.42
86701
Action Rental - Maint equip rental
8.48
86702
Hardware Hank - Maint. Dept. misc. supplies
82.78
86703
Bryan Rock Products
217.75
86704
Barton Sand & Gravel
41.84
86705
Schwantes Service - Maint. garage htg repair
60.00
86706
thru
86717
November 22nd payroll
6,971.23
TOTAL ' '$' '88'i16'0.54
Since we do not have time to discuss every point presented, it may
seem that decisions are preconceived. However, background information
is provided for the City Council on each agenda item in advance from
City Staff and appointed Commissions; and decisions are based on this
information and past experiences. In addition, some items may also
have been discussed at previous Council meetings. If you are aware of
information that hasn't been discussed, please fill out a "Request to
Appear Before the City Council" slip; or, if you came late, raise your
hand to be recognized. Comments that are pertinent are appreciated.
Items requiring excessive time may be continued to another meeting.
AGENDA
LAKE ELMO CITY COUNCIL MEETING
NOVEMBER 19, 1985
7:00 p.m. Meeting Convenes
1. Agenda
2. Minutes: November 5, 1985
3. Claims
4. CITY ENGINEER'S REPORT
A. 201 Program: Consider Bids for
Emergency Septic Systems
B. Shoreland Permit: Request from
Ronald W. Nelson, 4565 Olson Lake Trail
C. Final Plat Approval: Tartan Meadows
2nd Addition, Willard Morton
D. County 19B - Request by Dick Herald
to discuss project with the Council.
5. CITY ATTORNEY'S REPORT
A. Municipal Administrative Procedures
and Legal Liability.
B. Taylor-Mazzara Petition
6. PLANNING AND LAND USE
A. Section 32 Land Use Concept Map
7. CITY COUNCIL REPORTS
8. CITY ADMINISTRATOR'S REPORT
A. Comparable Worth Study
m
B. Legion Pond Update
(informational item).