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HomeMy WebLinkAbout08-22-83 PZM��oPl1 LAKE ELMO PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING Q AUGUST 22, 1983 REVISED MINUTES i Chairperson Prince called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m. at the City Hall. rcl ei J ak COMMISSIONERS PRESENT: Gifford, Lyall, Lundquist, Michels (7:0.- p.m.), Moe, and Alternate Graves. (Absent: Dreher, Nazarian, and Alternate Ryberg.) Also present Assistant City Administrator Klaers. 1. MINUTES - M/S/P Graves/Gifford to approve the B/8/83 Planning Commission minutes as written. (Carried 6-0) 2. COUNCIL ACTION - Klaers reported that Council agreed to MUSA line but showed 3 areas they decided to leave in R1 zoning, and there's problem with LAWCON grant for Pebble Park in that it is not in MUSA line and does not fit into urban definition. 3. I-94 PLAN - Rob Chelseth, City Planner, presented plan as shown on schematic for MUSA line, existing businesses/industries, and intended zoning for Intersections 19 and 15. He explained policy changes to Comp Plan (beginning on page 90). Map reflects modifications to Sections 32 and 33, with industrial/commercial focused in Section 32 and western 33, with restricted low -density high -way type businesses to the east along Highway 94 due to non - availability of on -site sewer and with concentration of those businesses on two intersection areas. This type planning would not have to amend zoning ordinances and as proposals come in, Lake Elmo would have a chance to look at policies and see if they fit into plans. • Gifford - What fits into definition of "highway -type business"? (Chelseth - Something really clear --budget motel, gas stations, etc. Planning Commission would have to make judgment calls on a case -to - case basis if it's oriented to highway business.) • Prince - Like map because it gives us control. • Graves - Is it presently zoned RR? (Prince - yes, one problem is someone could put house in which would not fit into future plans.) (Chelseth - you would have to rezone area to business to prevent this.) • Graves - I prefer zoning it all the way across since ease of access will focus most of development on intersections and then slowly infiltrate to the other areas. • Gifford - "I think it's a good idea; I agree we have to address the question that Rob said about in -filling, whether or not we want that between the two and it looks like we already have a substantial amount so it's a reality." • Lyall - No quarrel with new plan as proposed. • Michels - I like this plan better than the others since it does provide a certain amount of control which we fail to have with present plan. It is just a plan. (Chelseth - one of the most specific purposes of it is to get responses from people.) • Gifford - as far as attracting any business to Lake Elmo, it's a more realistic plan than trying to get people to center downtown. LAKE ELMO PLAN. COM. MTG. - 8/22/83 Page two o Consensus of Commissioners was that both changes to the Comp Plan and map were agreelable and acceptable. ® Giffdrd - however, question of in -filling would have to be addressed. (Chelseth - since there doesn't seem any urge or pressure right now I would leave it in the present zoning.) Klaers will take this information to the City Council for their reaction, and then a public hearing will be held. 4. JOINT MEETING w/CITY OF OAKDALE PLANNING COMMISSION - Mayor. Eder, narrator, explained that Mayor of Oakdale had wanted the two Planning Commissions to get together and exchange their plans for I-94 development, providing water to Lake Elmo, etc. THOSE PRESENT FROM OAKDALE: Carl Peterson/ Head of. Oakdale Development Group; Kurt Ulrich, Planner/Administrator Assistant; Bill Weber, Planning Consultant (BRW, Inc.); Dan Boxrud, City Engineer. (SEE', Inc.); Elizabeth Semotink, Planning Commission Chairperson; and Planning Commissioners Bill Carroll, Annette Kornbrekke, Craig Schwartz, R. W. Voigt, and Gene Malott. A. Development, Existing and Planned - Mr. Bill Weber, Planning Consultant, showed colored maps of areas as developed and in planning stages along with land undeveloped. Most of land east of 694 is,undeveloped; looking at single-family homes and park development between Highway 15 and Stillwater Boulevard; essentially no activity north of. Highway 5; and some industrial to north., Since 3M development on 694 and Highway 5 interchange doesn't look promising, revisions to land use plan will be made in next few years (i.e. shrinking industrial and commercial development which will decrease traffic). Land owners interested in lower densities. Functional road system map was explained -- lengthening Ideal Avenue (as collector) to Highway 36 can be issue for discussion. Third map showed proposed road designs; map Four delineated drainage which involves the Metro and Valley Branch Watersheds; and map Five showed sewer systems, interceptors, etc., and which areas are to receive Metro sewer after 1990. o Lyall - What do you plan to do with Croix property? (Answer -• it has been sewered and is for sale.) B. Planned City Services, Water, and Sewer - Dan Boxrud, City Engineer, further explained sewer, gravity, interceptor boundaries, and location of lift stations existing and proposed in accordance with 1990 sanitary sewer system plan that,Met Councl asked Oakdale to develop. Regarding waste -to -energy plant, Oakdale would ultimately like to eliminate temporary connections with easterly areas going into Lake Elmo if and when Lake Elmo has sanitary sewer on the west boundary that the city could share. Mr. Boxnad showed Oakdale drainage that goes into Valley Branch Watershed District and small portion into Cottage Grove Watershed Management system so cities have a lot in common relative to drainage; Wastershed's demanding criteria will affect both Oakdale and Lake Elmo and hopefully any differences will be ironed out when 509 is addressed. LAKE ELMO PLAN. COM. MTG. - 8/22/83 Page three • Prince -- "Can I ask you something about ponding areas and things? I often get discussions from people about Menards, for example, that, gee, that used to be a nice,pond but Menards was built in the middle of it. We have tried to indicate to people who want to build here that if there's a swamp the swamp's going to stay and they can go someplace else because the swamp is a natural holding area for water and we have such high water problems and if there is an area where water is goring to' be held naturally we should hang on to it and keep it. What would be your response to somebody saying, can I build in the middle of this swamp; why would you allow that to happen?" (Boxrud - in the city's plan at that time, it was to control rate and not volume and if you're going to control just the rate of runoff you can do it with a certain amount of ponding. It was determined that only a certain amount of water storage was needed at that site and that amount is still available. Now we have a control requirement also as to volume a i n.t just rate:) • Prince - "We're .' ;'concerned with any water flowing into Lake Elmo and you can put that on the top of your list..." • Boxrud - Rather than holding all the water, we have to look at the whole picture from the top to the bottom of the Watershed to see what the best overall mix is regarding ponding, piping, etc. • 'Boxrud showed map of Oakdale's water"systems, i.e., trunk mains that are in or under construction. There's possibility of building some type of water system for people who need service. Wells and storage systems are indicated on map; private contaminated wells are not hooked up to system; building of water mains is assessed to abutting property owners; all. of Oakdale's water comes from Oakdale wells. • Gifford - Is this water system contingent upon finding more contaminants in the Lake Jane system? (Art Schaeffer, County Commissioner - we're undertaking a gradient well system now for testing, but the demand right now is a petition from people south of. Lake Jane for a community system to be in place because of health and property marketability reasons.) • Jim McCloud, Chairman of H.E.L.P., Homeowners for Eliminating Landfill Pollution, said that 109 people have signed a petition potentially impacting 175 homes. Only few have contaminated wells according to PCA; the problem is that contaminants are -rated lower. by PCA than which are hazardous to your health. People cannot sell homes and mortgage companies will not finance homes in or near contaminated areas; we feel only way to restore property values and health factors is to provide water service wherein Ramsey would be liable for 2/3 of the cost because it is their dump site. Hickock & Associates have identified impacted area, and dump site is continuing to spread - air stripping would take 3-6 years, however digging up of dump is too costly. If something isn't done or air stripping isn',t successful, there will be contaminants in a far greater area. Drainage is mainly to the southwest, but contaminants have been found north also. A hydrologist has said that the Phase III report doesn't even identify primary water flow since not enough work has been done. • Mayor, Eder - Lake Elmo is looking at it from standpoint (unofficial as yet) if we want Lake Elmo system or combination system with Oakdale. Economic feasibility has to be addressed. LAKE ELMO PLAN. COM. MTG. - 8/22/83 Page four • Gifford - how many homes could you conceivably hook up if you built a well? (Boxrud - It depends on how much area you want to serve; we can match area with right.'number of wells, right size system, and right amount of ,stor.age.). • Lyall L What is going to be done by 3M in the existing area? (Boxrud - 3M will spend about $6-8 million and will remove some of contaminants; biggest share of work will be water treatment on site, i.e., develop pumping, use air -stripping, or other methods. Otherwise, they may have to dispose' of it through sanitary sewer system. ''Storm water system goes west and east; Avery site goes toward Lake Elmo; could compound Lake Elmo's problems depending on the rate of pumping [water could be recirculated right there].) • Jim McCloud - The Hickock report envisions that $250 thousand will be saved by utilizing Oakdale system without Lake Elmo building its own water tower and well system. Estimated cost of doing it alone was about $9 0 thousand, with half of it going toward water tower and wells th mselves. If Oakdale put well in at earlier date, they would pick up interest on cost of well and tower for that period which would cut it down to a savings of $250 thousand by utilizing their. service. • Mayor. Eder - we would have to have Carl Peterson, Chairman of Development Commission, and our engineer look at figures and determine if we talk to people in wider area or just those in impacted areas which will make a difference in our approach. • Jim McCloud - Our petition specifically called for the cost of the system to be borne by all the residents of Ramsey County (2/3) and by Washington County (1/3); feeling is that burden of damage is by the governmental agencies putting in dump site. By counties putting in community water system, they may be foregoing numerous and costly law suits. We're not asking Lake Elmo to pay for this sytem. C. Street System - Dan Boxrud, City Engineer - Oakdale needs land areas opened up, would like to see 120 and 694 access which would benefit both Lake Elmo and Oakdale; also Ideal to Highway 36 opened up as indicated on map. Some of unimproved county state aid highways in Lake Elmo could be removed to account for extra mileage from Ideal to Highway 36; therefore, County would have money available, Oakdale could assess some, use some filSA money if they had to, and get this built as a better route forpeopleof Lake Elmo and Oakdale. • Mayor Eder - We hope we can have another joint meeting to allow review (our comp plan, current zoning map, street plan, etc.) by Lake Elmo on the issues brought up and with issues pursued in the interim. • Prince'- three issues we could talk about are sewer coming into Lake Elmo, Ideal and 50th Street issue, and our water problem. • Eder - issue of water should be discussed with neighbors, etc. Consensue_ of. both Planning Commissions was that Oakdale would host the next joint meeting for another informal discussion; date will be set of with Klaers. Chelseth and Bohrer will make presentations. LAKE ELMO PLAN. COM. MTG. - 8/22/83 Page five 5. NEUDAHL PRELIMINARY PLAT, r,AKE JANE ESTATES -.Bruce Folz explained that current zoning is R-1 as shown on preliminary plat. Drainage was discussed im'great detail by both Mr. Folz and City Engineer Bohrer. Folz explained catch basin and pipe system to ponding area which would handle flow. Only potential problem is easement for. drainage (Dennis peck, Consultant for. Neudahl, said this would have to be defined and could be handled by engineers and contingencies). Some of ponds and wetland areas would be excavated to eliminate silt and create greater sand seepage. 0 Bohrer - answers should be provided as to which way streets slope, where drainage goes into both Springborn and Foxfire Green Acres, overflow of lower pond, pipe system proposal if it overflows into Lake Jane, substantial cost of pipe system, and utilization of ponding areas adjacent to Jane Road North west of Jamaca Avenue. Developer should have obligation for no increase of water flow but not responsible for decreasing it. • Lyall - What is elevation of low spot on road? (Bohrer •- 935.) How much lower do you have to go to make it go under the road and won't that start water going into the lake sooner? (Bohrer - to get under the road, it could be as shallow as 2' or deeper.) (Folz - top of proposed structure is 933 and read at low point is at 932.5 or 933; if higher than the road level, it would come down and run into pipe.) • Bohrer -- 934 elevation shown is proposed elevation and part of dike they're going to construct. • Gifford - in spring of year, there's usually steady runoff over the road. With ditch system, would you expect that with the ditch system that the pond would only hold water in April when it normally does or at other times of year because of the connection? (Bohrer - I think it would hold some water all periods of the year; that pond would see some street drainage from the cul-de-sac from the north. The silt in the areas are sort of sandy and I think initially after the pond is made it will seep away quite fast; as they get older they tend to hold more water and sometimes have to be maintained and cleaned out.) • Lyall - if you have existing, natural ponding areas now and you're going to create roads, cul-de--sacs and homes, where do you get increased capacity to take care of this? (Bohrer - by.excavating some of natural wet areas deeper.) (Folz - we're taking this area and calling it wetland ponding area and excavating out 2° topsoil material --or 3,000 to 4,000 yards of heavy material --thereby increasing the storage area and giving us more percolation under the ground. It's a combination of excavating and putting in a berm on the lower. end.) • Lyall - essentially, the berm is doing nothing but accomplishing at the same level as the road when you put the spill -way there so you're really not gaining anything from the berm; don't see where it's holding back any water. (Folz •- Berm is put in as a protection device and excavated area will be permanent storage area; other area will be temporary storage area.) LAKE ELMO PLAN. COM. MTG. - B/22./83 Page six ♦ Bohrer - To evaluate the plat we measure the areas on the contours, the existing ground, and the volume of the new contours; we can calculate how much excavation is going to come out of the holes which equals amount of storage that's available for volume needed. When it 1/goes on to construction, we,stake out in the field and dig out in the field to make sure it follows this plan. ♦ Folz - we're going to have to go back and do some more calculations as to what the impact is of increasing those existing capacities. ♦ Prince - Flave you heard from Valley Branch? (Folz read Valley Branch letter regarding ten-year recurring event and overflow route - and will get back to them regarding their concerns.) ♦ Gifford - what about the driveway situation on corner of Lot 1, Block 1, Phase II where pond is (southeast corner) •- does driveway create any problem with ponding there? (Folz •- showed on map the logical place for driveway to come.) (Bohrer -- we'd rather see it come off from Jane Court also because of available area left to build on and would like to avoid as many driveways on Jane Road as possible.) ♦ Gifford - in Foxfire, you see curb and gutter; and on Jane Road Circle you wouldn't see that because of ditches on both sides of roads? (Polz - It would be same type 'of road as in Foxfire, but additionally you'd have 2 1/2'to 3-foot ditch on east side and berm for emergency overflow.) ♦ Bohrer - If that's agreed upon, we would have to make sure ditch is quite gentle and wouldn't stand out. ♦ Dennis Peck, consultant for Neudahl, said under this plan, as Valley Branch addressed, it would be necessary to have easements and define where drainage would be; those could be handled by easements and made a part of the whole development; lot would have to be sold with that contingency. ♦ Prince - I think we're happy with everything on plat but drainage has to be resolved and cannot go into Lake Jane. I do have a question from landowner in Foxfire who owns Pond 1 (Mr.. Weber) - you're not going to excavate his pond? • Folz - he doesn't own the pond, Lake Elmo does; there's a drainage easement on that plat. (Prince - They planted a bunch of trees around that pond.) If they put them below that easement, that's too bad. It's shown graphically on this map. We're not planning to excavate this area at this time, but excavating over here on the Nuedahl property; but at some later date if the City requires it, we may choose to connect these two ponds which would require we do some excavation on it. (Bohrer - they'll actually function as one pond.) When Foxfire was done, he wanted standing water and it had been dry; so he went in and excavated an area and sealed part of it so he could have a standing water pond. That's how that area got there; I'm sure the rest of this area gets flooded in the spring of the year and then it's gone. ♦ Bohrer - Technically, they own pond but they don't ',have all the rights to it. It should be assumed that if property has drainage easement on it, at some time there will have to be some maintenance so anything planted on it would be at owner's own risk. ♦ Gifford -• Why is word "shoreland" included? (Folz - anything within 1,000 feet of edge of lake is considered shoreland.) LAKE ELMO PLAN. COM. MTG. - 8/22/83 Page seven • Lyall - with excavation of 2' on Pond 1, that's going to get you to a capacity of 11.6 or twice what the BoVtro study called for? G- (Borher - The study was developed under different uf criteria`',,d�� under which we're now functioning.) • Michels - One of the changes here is basically creating a smaller watershed; are you striving for that or making a bigger watershed by taking 34 acres and creating a watershed out of it? (Bohrer - problem with larger watershed is if we put more area into existing ponds, will we eventually have a problem with that? That's perhaps a potential problem and a future condition, whereas we know the problem on Lake Jane is a present condition. But there are immediate benefits making sure no additional drainage goes into Lake Jane.) m Folz - Difficult to compare one with the other because of different criteria. Putting pipe in this pond over into the Springborn Green Acres is an extremely artificial way of handling it since you're going through a 40' hill with pipe, and other way is natural way for water to flow. We've tried to compensate for change and not adding more water to Lake Jane by increasing ponding and storage area in these areas as shown. We have to go back and check some different flow rates and different events; issues have to be resolved between myself and Bohrer plus Mr. Nelson of the Watershed District has to be contacted. • Prince - this will be put on agenda when this is accompl hed. • Michels - I for one would have no problem with recommending approval to the Council as long as the drainage problem is resolved contingent upon the engineer's and Valley Branch Watershed's approval; I believe they're holding back water in second pond and stopping it from actually running in at times right now if the plan goes through. • Graves - do you see any problem of land marketability with proximity of landfill? (Sherrill Neudahl, owner - we received explanation from Watershed that drainage from landfill goes southwest away form our area which seems to satisfy potential buyers.) (Dennis Peck - we would have to have hydrological engineer statement for marketability but don't see any problem.) • Lyall - I'm still not satisfied and have same negative opinions as expressed at last meeting. M/S/P Michels/Graves to recommend that the City Council approve the Neudahl preliminary plat contingent upon approval of the Valley Branch Watershed District and City Engineer's report that drainage question has been resolved; that link -up would take place at same time 49th Street North is done; and that driveway on Lot 1, Block 2 would be restricted by covenant to access off Lake Jane Court. (Carried 7 ayes; Lyall nay.) 6. MISCELLANEOUS - Michels expressed his discontent with (a) children using Lake Jane streets as playground and (b) people using well water for watering lawns when pumping could be done from lake. The meeting adjourned at 10:20 p.m. Submitted by: Ilene Johnson, Acting Secretary CITY OF a LAKE ELMO City of Lake Elmo 777-5510 3880 Laverne Avenue North / Lake Elmo, Minnesota 55042 AGENDA PLANNING COMMISSION AUGUST 22, 1983 7:30 P.M. --- Convene 1. Minutes - August 8, 1983 2. I-94 Plan - Rob Chelseth, City Planner (At the Request of the Mayor) 8:00 P.M. 3. Meet with Oakdale Planning Commission on Mutual Planning Issues A. Development - existing and planned B. Planned City Services (1) Water (2) Sewer C. Street System 9:00 P.M. --- 4. Lake Jane Estates - Neudahl Preliminary Plat BRING YOUR CODE BOOKS CITY OF LAKE AELMO City of Lake Elmo 777-5510 3880 Laverne Avenue North 1 Lake Elmo, Minnesota 55042 MEMO TO: Planning Commission Members FROM: Pat Klaers, Assistant City Administrator RE: August 22, 1983, Planning Commission Agenda 1. MINUTES: The August 8, 1983, Planning Commission minutes were sent out to all members on Thursday, August 11, and, therefore, are not included in this packet. 2. I-94 PLAN: The City Planner for Lake Elmo, Rob Chelseth, will be attending this August 22 meeting to discuss the Lake Elmo plans for development along I-94. Attached are some goal and policy statements relating to this I-94 strip which Rob sent us last week. 3. JOINT MEETING WITH OAKDALE PLANNING COMMISSION: Per a request from County Commissioner A. B. Schaefer, Jr, the Mayor and myself attended a meeting (which Mr. Schaefer arranged) with Oakdale City Officials last Monday, August 15. Originally the major reason for this meeting was the County's concerns for safe drinking water near the landfill area. Discussion first centered on the possibility of Oakdale supplying water service in Lake Elmo around the landfill site, then, expanded to issues of common concern such as the roadway system and compatible land uses near the common boundary. Everything was discussed in very general terms and nothing was decided except to have the Planning Commissions from both cities meet to discuss issues of common concern. The Mayor invited the Oakdale Planning Commission members to our meeting and, therefore, this item is on the Agenda for discussion at 8 p.m.. City Planner, Rob Chelseth will be present, also, Commissioner Schaefer plans to attend the meeting. 4 LAKE JANE ESTATES: A public hearing on the Preliminary Plat was held at the last Planning Commission meeting on August 8. The motion approved indicated that recommendations would be tabled until reports from the Watershed District and City Engineer were received and reviewed. City Engineer Larry Bohrer is on vacation and, at this point, has not forwarded any material on Lake Jane Estates. Engineer Bohrer is scheduled to return on Monday, August 22 and may at that time deliver some material for this item. Attaches is a review of this plat from the City Planner. Also, through a conversation with Dennis Peck, I understand a report from the Watershed District is due in the City Office on Friday, August 19. If we receive this report, it will be handed out at the meeting.