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HomeMy WebLinkAbout06-11-03 PZMAPPROVED: 7114/03, 7128103 City of Lake Elmo Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 Chairman Helwig called to order the meeting of the Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission at 7:00 p.m. COMMISSIONERS PRESENT: Meldahl, Berg, Sedro, Sessing, Van Pelt, Williams, John, Bunn, Johnson, Bucheck, Pelletier, Deziel, Herreid (7:07 pm). STAFF PRESENT: Chuck Dillerud, City Planner and Kimberly Schaffel, Recording Secretary. (Secretary's Note: Agenda items, instructions from the Chair, Rules of Order, and official actions are indicated by bold text. If an otherwise official action is not indicated by bold text, it was not made in order, and the reason is indicated in parentheses.) PLEDGE OF ALLIANCE Chairman Helwig advised the audience that he would accept no public input at this special meeting called to review last evening's public forum. He will accept comments submitted in written form, correspondence by mail or e-mail. AGENDA Tax Abatement was moved to the top of the Agenda. UPDATE ON TAX ABATEMENT The City Planner reported that the City may have missed two years of levy and those funds could be allocated to Old Village work. The City's tax abatement attorney advises we could ask our audit firm to give an opinion if the General Fund Levy for 2002 and 2003 could have included tax abatement. If so, there is General Fund surplus anticipated. The City could allocate some of those funds to the Old Village Sidewalks and Streetscapes. He also reported that the legislature amended the tax abatement statute this year, adding a provision that if a City misses Tax Abatement levies in a preceding year, the City may attach those missed levies to the 2004 Ievy. Either strategy could result in having more money for Old Village work in pay year 2004. The balance was $40,250 prior to 2001 values being budgeted. The Assessor has been moving the land value up as often as the law allows. The City Planner thinks the balance in that fund will end up over six figures. Another option could be to sell Improvement Bonds on a project. However, he questioned how much of a bond issue could be supported on $60-$70,000 per year of Tax Abatement money. Commissioner Deziel Is there no way of tacking the missed levy it on the end of the Abatement period? City Planner The maximum Abatement term was also changed by the legislature. Now the City has a 15-year district. It is so far out in time, we did not discuss that possibility. The previous Abatement law also provided that a city could not abate more than 5% of the annual levy or $100,000 whichever is greater, now it is 10% and $200,000. The Planner will talk with the County about it. Our Council might be hesitant to add missed Tax Abatement levies to the top of next year's levy. OUTCOMES ON PUBLIC FORUM NO. 1 Two e-mails were provided to the Commission along with the outcomes from the public forum last evening. Commissioner Bunn Her impression last evening was there are a couple of categories to deal with. One is to present our consultant with a list of things for refinement for the next round. 90% of what we heard will not bear on Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 1 APPROVED: 7/14103, 7/28/03 our recommendations to thei isultant including questions regarding ci( ater, and affordable housing. She suggested the Commission start with the things that will directly affect the three design options. Commissioner Williams Discussions in small groups were successful, but the reporting process was less than optimal. In one group, what was presented was not what was written; in another group, the comments reported were not accurate for the group's discussion; and in a third, the representative gave his personal philosophy and not the group's substantive comments. The reporters were supposed to be reporting comments, not evaluations or summaries. We need to be very careful with how we draw conclusions from those reports last night. He asked whether it is our objective tonight to come up with a single option that incorporates which most agrees with what we and the residents want. Commissioner Helwig He believes that is the idea, but does not see it happening tonight. Commissioner Sessing He agrees with Commissioner Williams but it may not be just one option. M/S, Williams/Berg, Tonight's objective is to come up with one option with any, all, or no aspects of the three design options to present to our consultant for refinement. Commissioner Johnson It might be too early to entertain a Motion until there has been further input and discussion. Commissioner Deziel He agrees. Commissioner Van Pelt He has concerns related to not having enough facts at this point to make an intelligent decision. The impression was that the citizens want lower density but higher density might be required to get some of the improvements we want. He would be concerned about coming up with just one right answer. Commissioner Johnson The Highway 5 crossing is a major safety issue. There was a desire to see downtown Lake Elmo incorporated in our overall plans but we were not addressing that as a feature. There were positive responses to cluster developments because the people thought there was a sense of neighborhood. Others felt Option 3 was the most appealing. POINT OF ORDER: The discussion is not addressing the motion. Williams. City Planner The consultant has arrived. He could address the group and relate what he expects from the Planning Commission tonight to guide him in his work. That might go directly toward the motion. We have a contract for this work. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects Between the Mayor and the Planner, I did not hear we were going to come in on July 8th with only one option. We were going to come back with what we will call Alternate Number 4, building on Options 2 and 3 and reflecting what was discussed. The five critical issues seemed to be: 1. Dealing with Highway 5, Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 2 APPROVED: 7/14/03, 7/28103 2. Transfer of Density( ,hts and how it will work. 1000 Friends h( , diagram on their web site with locations where it is working. 1997 MN legislature passed enabling legislation to allow TDR Programs. Chisago County adopted a TDR in 2000 but transfers have yet been made. Cambridge, MN Extension Service's Liz Templin said one of the critical mistakes in County was property owners were not involved with the process. We have been actively meeting with owners trying to bring them aboard with TDR but we still need to have discussions about it. 3. Waste/Stormwater issues of implementation, monitoring and maintenance. What kind of capacity should we be showing? We showed 600 houses. If we wanted to look into adding the existing city, how many more are we talking about? That could make a significant difference to what we present on July 8. 4. Affordable Housing questions. He had a conversation with Maxwell Research's Mary B. (the premier economic housing marketer in the Twin Cities) One of the questions was how do we control the cost of land for affordable housing? It would be tied into the current zoning, incentives for additional units to control the cost. They could do some analysis to determine the right number of units that would provide enough incentives to cover the construction of the infrastructure, septic in town, and there could be some economic indicator. It might be advisable to meet with Maxwell to get them to do something before July 8. Density rights could be gained and then they may just build ten expensive houses. We need to be able to have some control over that and have some more meetings with the landowners. We will need smaller lots and get land costs down in order to have affordable housing. 5. Density to determine number of units„ and resulting housing costs. The Real Estate Economist could help with that. He thought he could submit an Option 4 with adjustment showing proposed resolution of some of these issues to answer some of the questions. More image sketches should be developed, and he would revise the PowerPoint to cover where we have been and where we are going. Revise the diagram of TDR (working with Maxwell Research) to better illustrate how the city can control TDR so the end result is winning for everyone. City Planner That seems to go directly toward Commissioner Williams' motion. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects Wastewater/stormwater implementation and maintenance - how many homes determines how much land, especially for wastewater. Residents need some assurance with quotes that this is a proven methodology. Bob Sykes says it is possible. How do we maintain those systems properly? Usually the city handles that for municipal waste treatment plants. Commissioner Williams That would apply to Options 2 and 3 and 4 Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects Rather than choose one, let it Evolve into Option 4. There was a great deal of support for greenways and trails, but there were issues about retail and crossing Highway 5. Commissioner Bunn There were to be multiple Options in in the Commission's original concept of Forum 2. We even thought of allowing them to vote for the one they liked the most. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects That is what he remembered too. Commissioner Bunn South of 5 is the desired location for retail. Business offices could be north of 5 but not more retail. More than one option can cover more of the ideas. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 3 APPROVED: 7/14/03, 7/28/03 Commissioner Van Pelt FIe envisions a 4a or 4b as we distill those desires and features. There may be more than one way to do it. Commissioner John There is a need to provide wastewater treatment for the existing city. A number of citizens asked, "When will a system answer our problems?" There should be an area for constructed wetland large enough to accommodate the existing city, not a location, just whether there is enough space. City Planner It does make a difference where it goes, but size it for the whole village. He does not wish it to become a fear that they will wake up to a $12,000 assessment. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects There may be an Alternative 5 after July 8 so citizens are part of the process, letting it evolve one more time. Commissioner Van Pelt He would rather they accelerated getting a consensus in August by presenting two options on July 8 instead of leaking them out one at a time. Summarize the desires we know now. Let the citizens react as quickly as possible. Commissioner Deziel He feels restrained by the motion to be able to have the open discussion so we can get down to that sort of thing. CALL THE QUESTION. Deziel/John. Commissioner Bucheck She asked the Recording Secretary to read back the original motion. Discussion ensued. POINT OF ORDER: The motion to end debate is not debatable. Williams. VOTE: 7:4:2 FAILED. AGAINST: Williams, Helwig, Berg, Bucheck (Van Pelt, 2nd Alternate), (Abstain: Sessing, Herreid). (The Motion Failed because two-thirds of Commissioners present are required for passage of a Motion To End Debate.) Commissioner Here The objective is to come up with alternatives, with 4a and 4b. We need to have a goal; we do need to be restrained. He supports the motion to get going, and get objectives under that goal. Commissioner Bunn She thought there was going to be one plan. She does not think that should be the case. Commissioner Williams His Motion was intended to set an objective to what we give to the consultant, it was not intended to restrict what we present to the public in July. He agrees that there should be more than one option presented to the public. Commissioner Meldahl If we assume 400 — 600 houses we must consider that the school is already at capacity now; twice it has been enlarged. He would like to see that in the plan. We are overrun with traffic on 5. Move that school back further to the Brookman 3rd Addition site, and build the proposed apartments and townhomes on that Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 4 APPROVED: 7/14/03, 7/28/03 corner. Then we have room( a Highway 5 walkway. With all these n0 comes we have a school problem. Try to look ahead to what is going to happen here. Move the fire department and public works back in this development to make room for senior citizens to have a place in the Old Village. Commissioner Pelletier She agrees with Mel, she sat in on group 3 and Tim's group, just about everyone she talked with raised an issue of safety on Highway 5, and everyone said the school was a big issue. Interrupted with a POINT OF ORDER: Let's resolve the Motion. Bunn/Williams. Commissioner Deziel That's why he Called the Question. Some people can speak and others cannot. CALL THE QUESTION, Helwig, FAILED FOR A SECOND. Commissioner Bucheck She thinks Commissioner Williams wants us to come to some sort of consensus in a list for the consultant. Commissioner Van Pelt He asked the Maker for a friendly AMENDMENT to state that the goal is to provide direction to the consultant in terms of design components and style of output that we expect to have them create for July 8, which is slightly different than to say we should come up with an alternative. M/S, Williams/Sessing, To accept the friendly amendment to the original motion. Councilmember DeLanQ He began speaking from the audience. Chairman Helwis The Chair explained to Councilmember DeLapp that he would not be recognized. The Chair advised that he recognized Mr. DeLapp as a Council Member, but he would appreciate the discussion remaining within the Commission at this time. Commissioner Bucheck Let's Call the Question. (Interrupted) Councilmember DeLanu I was hoping to help. Commissioner Bucheck Call the Question. (Interrupted) Cotmcilmember DeLanu He explained his reasons for interrupting the proceeding. CALL THE QUESTION, Bucheck/Sessing, VOTE: 12:0:1 (Abstain: Deziel) PASSED. VOTE ON THE AMENDED MOTION: 13:0 PASSED. The Chairman advised the assembly that discussion would take place in an orderly manner. Commissioner Bucheck Traffic patterns on Highway 5 came up in every group. The consultant also addressed it as the number one issue. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 5 APPROVED: 7/14/03, 7/28103 Commissioner John Everyone is concerned about Highway 5, the key player for Highway 5 is Mn/DOT to explain what can or cannot be done, or else we are spinning wheels. Ask the Planner to contact Mn/DOT to have a meeting to discuss our options and what flexibility there may be in terms of modifying Highway 5. Commissioner Bucheck She asked the consultant if there is any way to connect north to south and transport people from north to south. Commissioner Meldahl A bypass of Highway 5 was on the drawing board years ago. Would that work? City Planner It won't work geometrically. We have absolutely nothing to say about Highway 5. Mn/DOT might go for an overpass with enough clearance for trucks, from edge to edge of the right of way but we would have to pay for it. They do not want to calm that traffic. They are moving 5 figures of volume away and back. Maybe we should get that stretch of Highway 5 turned back to the city. It is on the agenda for the county within the next 20 years. Maybe we can accelerate that. Commissioner Bunn Clearly we won't resolve the issue of the means for crossing 5 tonight, but there is a way to figure it out at some future date. Assuming that it is possible, we have design issues for north and south of Highway 5. We heard at the meeting the preference of consolidating even more retail downtown on Laverne, rather than pushing it north of town. Partly it was because of Highway 5 and because it is walkable and senior accessible. Commissioner Pelletier They would be receptive to Options 2 or 3 if we can just find a way to cross the road. Commissioner Van Pelt We need to explore the option for taking back Highway 5. Crossing the road is problematic at best. If getting Highway 5 turned back is not an option then the design has to minimize the need to cross Highway 5. Commissioner Deziel He read the article in the packet about traffic calming and context sensitive design and how it can improve small towns. It struck him as viable in Lake Elmo. The other thing that is crucial is that we get that traffic down to 30 mph the way it does in Lindstrom. City Planner We might get Highway 5 to be acceptable, so it is not a barrier, but if not, then we have to think about what is on the other side of it. Commissioner Bunn There is no way we can do this research by August 25 of this year. Assuming it cannot be done, are we then not going forward with this design? There are means, such as an overpass, that we can still do. We are not in a position to alter the design based on traffic calming or turn back. Commissioner Bucheck Assuming traffic calming through town, where do we feel the retail should be? Should it all be south of Highway 5? Are we going to create another business district? Commissioner Sedro The issue of commercial development was not just the barrier of Highway 5, but the geography of two commercial areas creating competition with each other that was viewed as a bad thing. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 6 APPROVED: 7114/03, 7/28/03 Commissioner John ( 1 The area north of 5 is already zoned commercial. If you could rezone to eliminate retail, that might eliminate concerns, unless we rezone it in a peculiar way. Two commercial districts- one on either side of Highway 5. We should provide a plan for the downtown where we move the fire station, maybe the ball field, add retail, leave the parking, and continue in that vein. That might be a subset of a sketch the consultant can provide. Commissioner Bucheck If retail is going north of 5, then locate it near the pedestrian crossing or have two crossings. Commissioner Williams Converging on two possibilities at least for commercial development on the new plan, one concentrating all on the south and the other alternative split with additional development south of Highway five. Commissioner Deziel We already have some development north. Would we eliminate residential south of 5 in order to gain retail space? Commissioner John With an overpass, you have to have space for pedestrian access to gain height and cross over. The real estate requirement must be defined. Consultants could provide us with an overlay in the center of Lake Elmo to show what space demands are required for such a crossing. The assumption is some sort of traffic calming with islands or crossings, with refuges in between, for pedestrians to be safe as they cross while staying at ground level. Commissioner Van Pelt A third option is if Highway 5 stays as it is today, the alternative is articulating the design to minimize the need for crossing that barrier. Commissioner Williams On the record, the concept of expanding commercial development south of highway 5 is a new one that was not thought of before. Where would we put it? In place of the fire hall and Lions Park ball field. It is cheap and easy to move a park. It is way too small anyway. Commissioner Meldahl He agreed. Move the ball field over to where we were going to put a community center at Schiltgen's Farm. The fire station and parks could go north. Near Gorman's that space could be opened up. Move the fire station up north, and the parks building too. Commissioner Pelletier None of the plans have a central park in them. Right where we have the ball field is another option for the park. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects There is one in Option 3. There is a narrow park, building off the one we have there now. City Planner The Parks Commission is looking at that closely. The park they envision is ball fields. They asked the Council to research the topic. They have suspended their work to see the outcome of this project. That location was also a good place for senior housing. Commissioner Bucheck Could we move the car dealership? Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 7 APPROVER: 7/14/03, 7/28103 City Planner If there is enough money, it could be done. Commissioner Deziel If we could get that section of 5 turned back in 20 years, his first inclination is to ask what we would want it to do then and work to gradually achieve it in five year increments. We would want intersections and a unified area. TDR hinges on a lot of the land north of Highway 5. We need to unify the city even it is all zoned residential. Commissioner Bunn The next topic should be either TDR or density. The total number of units relates to senior and affordable housing as well. Options 2 & 3 were favored, particularly 3, but keep the number of houses to 400 or less. There is more than one way to do that. One way was TDR but it is not clear that it has been completely fleshed out. Do we know that the citizens of Lake Elmo would not financially support part of this in a PDR context? Maybe they would be willing to tax themselves a little bit to preserve green space like in the county vote a couple of years ago. If there is contention over the issue, maybe there are different mechanisms for achieving Option 3 but not only with more units. We need to research bonus incentives to get the affordable units. One way to do that is housing trusts in which individuals own the units but not the land. There are some in the Washington County and metro areas, which help cities, develop these arrangements. The city owns other parcels that might also be appropriate to build senior and affordable housing. She would like to see a map of city -owned land. If we do have contention over density we might leave ourselves open to other mechanisms to achieve those goals. Commissioner Van Pelt Generally he agrees, what do we pay for the additional density? First we have to figure out an amount. He supports finding out how much we have to fund to do that. He encourages efforts at acquiring the asset and the offsetting costs of maintenance, school, fire, etc. The whole picture for publicly subsidizing those features might not be as high as we fear. Commissioner John In Minneapolis, how do they fund their affordable housing? Through trusts, port authority. City Planner MCDA is the Minneapolis organization dealing with affordable housing. That organization is structured like a Port Authority You don't have to have a navigable river in town to create a Port Authority. A Port Authority has certain powers that a City Council cannot exercise. Commissioner Williams There is HRA at the county. City Planner They can do it but they need funding. Commissioner Bucheck Most of the people prefer 400 homes, rural area, and clustering those homes. Commissioner Berg Some he heard said the same and some he heard said exactly the opposite. We need to flesh out why a 20% unit count incentive is magical. Or, if we did not do any bonuses, what are the consequences? Commissioner Williams We would be matching existing OP developments in the city. There is no reason to offer incentives to cluster. They come in here to do it because it is cheaper to build in clusters, not because we offer incentives. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 8 APPROVED: 7/14/03, 7128/03 Commissioner Deziel They can keep the land that tight otherwise be preserved and build upon it. With TDR we may not have the ability to keep excess lands. City Planner The consultant needs some sort of answer about density. Wastewater will show how much land is being used up. Commissioner Bunn Researching how much incentive is there economically for schools, facilities, fire, believes that is beyond the scope and because it is not going to be relevant with a Comp Plan that will double our population. All those issues will have to be dealt with. It won't hinge on whether there are two hundred houses more or less. Commissioner Van Pelt Economic analysis should be complete. Commissioner Bunn We can't do it in a month. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects We can do it just generally running through some numbers, but not too precisely. Commissioner Van Pelt There is sensitivity about density. Show us why that is necessary and show us other alternatives to avoid that additional density. Commissioner Bunn When we know what the dollar incentive has to be, what would be the tax burden to do that instead of more houses? Perhaps the Planner can work with that. Some rough numbers could be done. Trusts and other mechanisms cannot be known within the month. She preferred Option 3 but would be okay with a smaller house count too. Commissioner Van Pelt If we understand the costs, the order of magnitude, then we can cone up with some mechanics in how to fund that. Commissioner Williams He proposes Options 2 and 3 at lower total counts (400 houses), that one direction for 4(a or b) is to show a clustered arrangement of only 400 houses. We also will have some of the numbers to work with. That may not be what we want but it gives us something to look at. Commissioner Deziel 1000 houses for septic capacity would be like the proof of parking we require for new developments. In the Old Village, some spots are running out of room. We may want to slightly oversize in terms of capacity. Commissioner Bunn How many units are in the Old Village now? City Planner There are 325 systems in the Old Village. The study calls for 400 transferable units in the 1,000 acres. Do you want to include senior housing in that number? Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 9 APPROVE©: 1114/03, 7/2d103 Commissioner John That is different than housing units but rather bedroom capacity. What size wastewater treatment facility is necessary to maintain how many bedrooms? Councilmember DeLann It is not the number of units or bedrooms that have to be served by the infrastructure; it is the number of people that live in those residences. Commissioner Williams There are more consequences to a number of units than just septic. Traffic and other infrastructure must be accommodated. Senior housing should be included in the total number of units Commissioner Sedro The people she spoke with wanted as few units as possible but there is no problem with 575 units because everyone was fine with existing density. They may not have a concept of current density. They may also believe the development may come all at once. I think they would actually be fine with Options 2 or 3. The Chair adjourned the meeting for 15 minutes. The Chair reconvened the meeting at 9:00 p.m. Commissioner Bunn She would like to see at least one option with only 400 units clustered. The Planner said it may not take incentives to get Option 3. Commissioner Deziel People were saying fewer houses. M/S, Bunn/Van Pelt, To recommend that one of the new alternative designs be developed like Option 3 with greenways, waterways wastewater treatment, and reduce the total density to 400 units exclusive of senior housing. Commissioner Sessine Can it be in cluster development? Not like Option 3 which is compacted, not clustered. City Planner Scattering clusters is difficult and we must be very careful. Commissioner Sessine Just cluster them in the same geographic area. Commissioner Bunn To clarify her motion, she prefers the compacted designs consistent to adjacent areas as suggested by Thorbeck. Commissioner Bunn Let's keep it open, we can make a friendly amendment that we don't specify clustered or compacted, in order to simplify things. Commissioner Sessine Each area has a density, ne, nw, se, sw, and a similar layout just with smaller clusters in the housing area with the same greenways, instead of straight compacting. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 10 APPROVED: 7114,03, 7128/03 Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbed rchitects Alternate 4a can be an outgrowth of Option 3 with 400 units and 4b can be an outgrowth of Option 3 with some number to be determined based on a real estate analysis. Commissioner John Just put 400 units where 575 were going to go. That means that there is more space left for greenways. Clustering will cause it to evolve naturally out of the design concept. Commissioner Williams The total number of units includes people, not just sewer capacity; he is concerned about the motion as stated expressly with, "In addition to senior housing." What if there were 200 senior units proposed? That would be too much. Commissioner Bunn How many should there be? We don't have enough information. Commissioner Williams In the spirit that this is just another alternative, it's probably okay. VOTE: 13:0 Commissioner Bucheck If we do this, where would these new units get their water come from? City Planner City water. We are sized right now to handle the 400 units because we are sized to the Comp Plan. However, elevated storage needs to be covered. Commissioner Bucheck What about hooking up existing homes and businesses to new wastewater treatment? City Planner They have been added already. Stormwater isn't part of the equation. M/S, Pelletier/Sedro, to direct staff to provide some sort of historical analysis and/or research plan of what has been done for Highway 5 in the way of researching an over/underpass, signalization, and traffic calming measures, to be presented to us with recommendations, a plan of action, and a timeline when those could be resolved. Commissioner Bunn We looked into Highway 5 in the past but now we need to solve the problem in conjunction with this plan. In the next 3-4 months, give us the history, why options aren't feasible, the basic economics of options, and get us on track. City Planner When I tell you Mn/DOT won't do it, you have to believe me. Commissioner John Part of our direction was to get designs of the footprint and overpass potential within that central area. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects This is a resolution that will evolve, three to four years ago a roundabout was proposed and was shot down by Mn/DOT. He tried to follow Chuck's outline, eventually working toward it as a city street. We can show an overpass and some possibilities like flashing lights at crosswalks. Also the shape of Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 11 APPROVE1:!: 7/14/03, 7i28/03 buildings at the east and we( "trances can work toward slowing up the( Fe. They may not recommend specifically, but rather offer an intention of how it will evolve over time. Commissioner Williams Even though Mn/DOT has refused our advances in the past, he knows that government tactics are to wear down the citizen opposition, but we can wear them down with persistence and consistency, and bring all our forces to bear including meetings with commissioners, the governor, and legislators. City Planner There should be no false assumptions that it will work because we want it. Commissioner Van Pelt We need to work our designs with the Highway 5 we have now and the Highway 5 of the future. Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects He envisioned the overpass as part of the trail system. VOTE: 13:0 Commissioner Williams What about the Civic Center or city buildings south of Schiltgen Farmstead? Commissioner Sedro Her group said city buildings were important, but just generally. They wanted libraries and that type of thing. Commissioner Williams Should we be looking at other locations? Commissioner Bucheck It was low on their lists. They were more concerned about 5, wastewater, and unit counts. Maybe they should bring it up next time. City Planner Most agreed about the Old Village and that public functions must be on the south side of 5. Commissioner Bunn A huge Facilities Study was done for which buildings need to be expanded and a new city hall built. The Council saw it. It is beyond the scope of this study. It will be on their plate in next 3 to 8 years. They will have to review their options for location and economics. Commissioner Bucheck Was it anticipated that landowners would give this to the city as open space? Land is given to the city but not for constructing city services. City Planner No, the city would purchase the land. Commissioner John He asked for clarifying the utilization of the five Schiltgen buildings south of highway and transferring it to use by the City. Are we envisioning that we get the buildings as is and house city equipment, or as a site for fire, maintenance, etc? Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 12 APPROVED: 7/14103, 7/28/03 City Planner ( 1 We have talked about both approaches. He is intrigued with how they could be converted to city use. The granary is 100 years old or more. Hennepin County made a park district headquarters out of an old farm building and it was wonderful. Commissioner Deziel Option 1 even shows Schiltgen farmstead preserved and room for a horse pasture. Is this just as OP development? City Planner It is preserved; it is the understanding that it is out of the question to be developed. Our understanding with Mr. Schiltgen is that the farmstead and enough acreage for the horse farm are preserved. That is the centerpiece of any of these plans. Chairman Helwig Width of streets, cul de sacs and alleys were mentioned. Commissioner Deziel One person objected to storm sewers because of mosquitoes and the insanitariness and narrow roads are difficult for emergency passage and maintenance. City Planner We may have a way to combine those and our interests. Fire, police, and school bus drivers do not like some of the little streets. There is also the issue of impervious surfaces as well. Maybe we can accommodate those ideas and ours as well. We will have to figure out how to get the fire trucks back out of there and the school bus problem. Commissioner Williams There was concern about a new city center being almost inaccessible because it is so far from everything except by car. It may not fulfill those purposes we want it to fulfill. Commissioner John City Hall south with the Schiltgen farm would not be an appropriate location. We may need to still have that as infrastructure but for maintenance fire, etc. But the management of the city should be more centrally located. Commissioner Bucheck With the amount of traffic on five, bringing cars in for a transit hub does not make sense if you want to slow them down. City Planner The idea is to try to knock down the number of cars on 5 now and future cars on Highway 5. Commissioner Bucheck Wouldn't it be better if they were parked further away? There would be less congestion. Commissioner John Cars would belong to the Highway 5 drivers. The plan moves it to the edge of the city. City Planner Two locations are shown, a potential one is Schiltgen south and one on the far eastern side of 10. That would be cutting off traffic from the east. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 13 APPROVED: 7/14/0s, 7/28/03 Commissioner Williams If there is no rapid transit, they will head west into the cities. If we get bus or train, they will come into the city for the bus or train. Commissioner Berg People who spoke to it either loved or hated it. We would be bringing in outsiders for parking in our community and a person who now parks in Woodbury would be able to walk to it, and said it would be great. Commissioner Herreid The elderly would have a main means for transportation to the core cities. They should be able to walk to it. Commissioner Deziel Most people liked the scale and style in the drawings and liked duplicating the densities of existing areas. There was a good feel toward it. Commissioner Williams It could be as simple as a park and ride lot or a train station some day. He didn't hear a lot of criticism. Commissioner Bunn Favored Option 3 by larger landowners in her group, they liked the concept and were happy with what they saw- as long as they could work out the TDR. Commissioner John It is implicit in Options 2 or 3 that the whole program is coordinated among the landowners. They may TDR and sell it but it should all be in the same timeframe or it won't work. Commissioner Bunn One of the owners asked about the staging. How do you also coordinate that infrastructure? Bob Sykes said that typically the city purchases easements for all these areas for utility spaces. City Planner We go out and officially map it and zone it so when they come to develop you have first option or dedicated land depending on the scale. If we have a plan, we know what our steps have to be. Commissioner Bunn She suggested we clarify TDR at the next presentation or prior to it privately to the landowners. Commissioner Bucheck Are open lands dedicated to a Land Trust? City Planner They have an easement just like how OP's are done now. The title will remain with the landowner and the owner will grow corn as usual. As long as it isn't developed we don't care if a HOA owns it. Commissioner Williams He thought the idea was to transfer ownership to a third party to avoid a future City Council from building upon it. City Planner The easement usually goes to a third party. The holder is usually a land trust but they are picky. The City is the lease holder or even owner of last resort. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 14 APPROVED: 7/14103, 7/28/03 Commissioner Bucheck If Pete's land is all open because he is transferring rights, he still owns the land. This gets locked down solidly. City Planner But he has sold the rights to develop it. Dewev Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects 1,000 Friends say that in return for development credit, the landowner puts a permanent easement which is recorded against the property. Commissioner Williams If there is no third party to object it can be vacated in the courts. City Planner He thinks the Land Trust will want these large pieces. Commissioner Bunn Maybe the public wants to know this. It is not public land, but private with easements. City Planner You transfer rights to develop, not ownership of the underlying land. Commissioner Williams He thought it was publicly owned. Commissioner Sessing The residents do not like alleys. City Planner The alternative is front -loading garages, and that will make us look like Roseville. Commissioner Williams They would be created just where they already exist and east of it. Commissioner Bunn In cities where there are alleys, social life takes place there especially in a cold climate when you drive into your garage all year. Children play with kids behind, not across the street. There is higher social interaction. Commissioner Bucheck Land on the northern bluff, should not be developed but remain green. Commissioner Berg A comment was it would ruin the view of the Old Village. Commissioner Bunn Can we be clear about incentives for affordable housing? The legal definition in the metro area is $170,000. Is that what we mean? Dewey Thorbeck, Thorbeck Architects He was trying to be reasonable. Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 15 APPROVED: 7114103, 7128103 Commissioner Bunn Currently nothing built in Lake Elmo is under $300,000. Even if we don't get $170,000 except senior housing, at least not at $300,000. She would be willing to research it with Commissioner John. The Chair adjourned the meeting at 9:50 p.m. Respectfully subnn i tted, It Kimberly Sch'a'ffel Recording Secretary Old Village Special Projects Planning Commission Meeting Minutes of June 11, 2003 16