HomeMy WebLinkAboutPL MINUTES 09151987 Meeting Sheet
IIIIII VIII VIII VIII VIII VIII IIII IIII
101692
Box: 21
Folder: PL MINUTES AND AGENDAS 1987
Document: PL MINUTES 09151987
1
C 2 TY O F S T . ANTHONY
P L ANN 2 NG C OMM 2 S S=ON M 2 NUTS S -
SEPTEMBER 1 5 , 1 9 8 7
1 The meeting was opened at 7: 35 P.M. with the Pledge of Allegiance
2 led by Chair Franzese.
3 Present for roll call: London, Wingard, Franzese, Werenicz,
4 Madden.
5 Absent: Wagner , Hansen.
6 Also present: David Childs, City Manager.
7 AUGUST 18 , 1987 PLANNING COMMISSION MIN_U_TES
8 Motion by Madden, seconded by Wingard to approve with the following
9 changes:
10 Page 1 , line l: Indicate the meeting was opened with the
11 Pledge of Allegiance.
12 Page 5 , line 3 : Substitute "Foss Road" for "Chandler Drive. "
013 Motion carried unanimously.
14 LONDON TO REPRESENT COMMISSION AT SEPTEMBER 22ND COUNCIL MEETING
15 Steve London agreed to report the minutes of that evening' s meeting
16 at the above.
17 PUBLIC HEARINGS
18 Commission Recommends Council Not Amend Ordinance for Second
19 Caretaker Unit in Mini-Warehouse Facility
20 The Commission had postponed action on the above request at their
21 August 18th meeting after the applicants had indicated they could
22 not be present for the public hearing on the above request that
23 evening.
24 Application: from Ken Solie of village Properties , 2916 Pentagon
25 Drive for an amendment of the City Zoning Ordinance
26 as it relates to mini-warehouse facilities in a
27 Light Industrial District to allow two rather than
28 one caretaker units in such facilities.
29 Staff report: Childs reiterated the advice he had given the Com-
30 mission in his August 14th memorandum that the hear-
W1 ing purpose was only for them to make recommenda-
32 tions to the Council related to changing the Ordin-
33 ance to allow two rather than one caretaking units
34 in a mini-warehouse facility;
35
1 added that if the Ordinance is so amended, another
• 2 hearing would be scheduled to consider the condi-
3 tional use permit which could then be issued for the
4 second unit;
5 pointed out that there was only one mini-warehouse
6 facility in St. Anthony and that at one time before
7 he came to the City, one caretaking unit had been
8 specifically approved for that facility;
9 read aloud the current language in the Ordinance as
10 included in his memorandum;
1.1 reported the property had been sold by Bernard Blan-
12 ske about a year ago to Ken Solie and Jerry Cowan,
13 who make up the Village Properties partnership who
14 are now asking permission to convert the unit which
15 had been originally designed for office space on
16 the second floor to an additional dwelling unit for
17 an assistant caretaker;
18 reported the applicants had agreed to work with
19 Larry Hamer to bring the unit up to code for that
20 purpose if the Ordinance is amended and they are
21 granted a conditional use permit to do that;
22 said he didn' t think the City had been aware that
03 Mr. Blanske had been usina the office space for
24 living quarters whenever he was in town; and
25 reiterated that only the general public had been
26 notified of the hearing on the Ordinance amendment
27 by notice in the August 5th Bulletin;
28 said if a hearing is scheduled on a conditional use
29 permit, the general public as well as all property
30 owners within 350 feet of the facility would again
31 be notified by legal publication and mailings to
32 those property owners;
33 told the Chair he would guess having more than one
34 caretaker unit in this type of facility would be
35 unusual and, in fact, said he perceived many mini-
36 warehouses, because they are fenced in and locked up
37 for a certain number of hours each day, do not have
38 caretakers living on the premises.
39 Proponent: Ken Solie, 2817 Silver Lane, disagreed with this
40 presumption, saying he believed most mini-storage
41 facilities have at least one caretaker unit and the
42 majority of them are rather heavily fenced in,
43 which is not the case in St. Anthony where his
0 2
• 1 facility is open to the street and has a rather
2 general access to it;
3 reported the building has to be unlocked at 6: 00
4 A.M. and locked up again at 10: 00 P.M. on d day-to-
5 day basis and the caretakers have to be available 24
6 hours a day, seven days a week to rent the vacant
7 units, take rental payments and provide security for
8 the units;
9 said it is very difficult for the couple who live in
10 the caretaker unit to be available for all those
11 hours and he was proposing the office space be made
12 available for living quarters for an assistant care-
13 taker who could provide the same services on week-
14 ends when the regular caretakers would not be avail-
15 able;
16 perceived the 250 square foot office space could be
17 brought up to code and converted to an efficiency
18 apartment with very little work if his firm decides
19 to use the space for this purpose;
20 reported his firm' s assumption that, since Mr.
2 . Blanske was using the office for living quarters,
22 there would be no objections to continuing that use,
•23 had led to Village Properties ' renting the unit to
24 the woman who would be vacating the premises at the
25 end of the month now that Mr. Hamer had informed
26 them this was a non-conforming use of the unit;
27 confirmed that the current renter had not served as
28 caretaker;
29 During his discussion of his proposal with the Commissioners, Mr.
30 Solie:
31 *told Commissioner London this facility differed greatly from
32 other types of mini-storage facilities which are heavily
33 fenced in and locked from the general public during all times
34 except the normal business hours when the facility would be
35 open for tenant access and collection of rents and renting of
36 vacant units;
37 *said because the same level of protection is not provided for
38 the St. Anthony facility, he perceived there was a need to
39 have a "caretaker/watch person? on the site at all times to
40 provide security for the property, those who use the storage
41 units, and the neighborhood;
42 *indicated the assistant caretaker would be compensated by
�43 free rent in space already available which, he believed,
3
1 after making the initial outlay to convert the office to a
2 dwelling, would be much cheaper in the long run than for
3 his firm to spend $6 , 000 to partially fence the facility in
4
5 and provide an expensive automatic locking system for the
6 entire facility;
7 *conceded it would be possible to fence in the accesses to the
8 units which face the back of the property, but it would not
9 be practical to fence in -the two units which face 39th Avenue
10 N.E. because those are only garage units which exit onto the
11 street;
12 *told the Chair there are 180 units in the facility, and alth-
13 ough he wasn' t really certain, believed the office was open
14 from 9 : 00 A.M. to 6: 00 P.M. , seven days a week or perhaps
15 only from noon to 6: 00 P.M. on Saturdays;
16 *told Commissioner Werenicz his firm had experienced no
17 security problems like break ins at all since they acquired
18 the property;
19 *conceded it was only for the convenience of the caretaker
20 couple that he was requesting a second caretaker unit;
21 *indicated to Commissioner Wingard that although parking
022 spaces are not specifically designated as such, there is
23 space for 50 cars to be parked around the site somewhere
24 or another;
25 *also said the entrances to the inside units are kept locked;
26 *told Commissioner London he believed it would be impractical
27 to pay someone to sit in the office for three hours doing
28 nothing and then to respond from another location for 15 min-
29 utes where his firm could offer free rent in an efficiency
30 apartment to have that person available when the caretaker
31 couple was gone;
32 *reiterated that his firm did not consider free rent in a
33 space they already had available, plus the initial outlay to
34 bring the unit up to code, could be considered to have a
35 significant impact on the operation costs for the facility
36 when compared to the $6, 000 it would cost to fence in only a
37 portion of the property and what it would cost to provide
38 security for the units which could not be fenced in.
39 Mr. Childs said he understood there had been considerable discus-
40 sion of fencing in the property when Mr. Blanske had come in to
41 request the second story and the Commission and Council had not
42 been too excited about that prospect because of the visual ap-
0
43 pearance. Commissioner Madden agreed with that statement, saying
4
1 it had been perceived that without fencing it would be possible for
2 the police to drive around the building, as they still do, once or
3 twice a night.
4 Chair Franzese reported that when Commissioners Hansen and Wagner
5 had called to say they would not be present that evening, they had
6 both indicated they would not be in favor of the request because
7 they perceived no real need for the second caretaker unit.
8 No other persons were present to provide input to the discussion
9 and the Chair closed the hearing at 7 : 53 P.M. for Commission
10 consideration of a recommendation to the Council.
11 Werenicz indicated he would have a hard time justifying such a
12 drastic step as amending the Ordinance based on one re-
13 quest for an isolated situation where the applicants
14 perceive the need for security for a facility for which
15 there have never been any security problems.
16 London agreed the amendment was pretty much uncalled for because
17 the request appeared to represent an economic rather than
18 a real need by the applicants;
19 said he could think of other ways of providing security
20 than to allow a live-in unit for that purpose.
•21 Wingard agreed he perceived this was just an easy way for the
22 owners to rent out the unit once they had to conform to
23 Larry Hamer' s order to evict the renter who was in there;
24 but indicated he wasn' t really bothered about the unit
25 being rented which seemed O.K. to him.
26 Franzese said she had also recognized this was an economic issue
27 for the applicants ;
28 perceived there were telephone or recording systems which
29 could be used when the caretakers were not available;
30 pointed out that the facility does have regular hours of
31 operation posted which made it hard for her to differ-
32 entiate between this business ' needs and those of other
33 businesses;
34 said she thought any one who was interested could get in
35 touch with the caretakers during the hours which have
36 been posted or could leave a note for the caretakers to
37 get in touch with them by telephone when they are there.
38
39 Madden said he lived in the same block and had perceived the
40 triplex next door seemed to require more police super-
41 vision than this building;
•
5
1 however, he said because there had always been someone
2 living in this unit and because this was a neighborhood
3 which had residential as well as light industrial uses,
4 he would certainly have no objections to having someone
5 live on the second floor of this building;
6 reported he stores his parents ' belongings in one of the
7 units and has experienced problems with getting the. care-
8 takers on the phone himself because "it is impossible
9 for them to be on duty 24 hours a day. " ;
10 thought having another person or two around the premises
11 might make it easier for the tenants to contact the
12 operators of the facility.
13 Mr. Childs said Mr. Blanske spent a good deal of time in Arizona
14 and he certainly hadn' t known anything about his living in that
15 unit. . The Manager said he couldn' t see where this could be
16 considered a "grandfathered" situation because the unit had been
17 designed for use as an office and not a dwelling.
18 Mr. Solie agreed that the unit had been so designed, but his firm
19 had assumed it could be continued to be used as a living space
20 because that was what Mr. Blanske was using the unit for when they
21 bought the property. He said he thought Mr. Hamer had found out
•22 Village Properties was renting the space when he had come to
23 inspect the property when Mr. Cowan was there.
24 Chair Franzese said she perceived there had been no problems with
25 having someone live in the unit, but she perceived there was a
26 conflict in land use and she wondered if the City would be es-
27 tablishing a precedent for such a conflict in other areas if they
28 allowed this particular use to remain in a light industrial zoned
29 property. She was concerned that the City would be getting
30 requests from property owners in the industrial park to rent out
31 unused portions of their buildings to persons who worked there.
32 She perceived the City might be getting into an area it might not
33 wish to get into at this time.
34 The following response was made to her statements:
35 Madden perceived this to be a different situation altogether
36 because the uses are already mixed in this particular
37 neighborhood.
38 Childs said he didn' t want to confuse the issue but wanted to
39 point out that in many small towns and even along Central
40 Avenue, it was regular practice to have living quarters
41 over stores and businesses;
6
1 indicated no such provision had been made in St. An-
2 thony' s Ordinance because the community grew from the
3 start as a residential suburb;
4 said some municipal ordinances are "cumulative" to allow
5 any use which is permitted in a residential district to
6 be used in a commercial zone and anything which is
7 allowed in a lower classification to be allowed in a
8 light industrial zoned area;
9 indicated St. Anthony' s is generally considered to be an
10 "exclusive" Ordinance, which allows only one exclusive
11 use in each different zoning category, but is not com-
12 pletely exclusive because it allows single family homes
13 or duplexes to be built in areas zoned for single family
14 homes and then imposes exclusive zoning for commercial
15 and light industrial;
16 said he perceived no major problems had been created by
17 allowing such a mix as long as issues like parking,
18 access, and codes had been addressed;
19 said he wasn' t certain it would be wrong to allow an
20 unused 1,000 square feet of space in the back of a ware-
21 house to be used for living space for someone who would
22 keep an eye on the property for the owner as long as
•23 there was adequate parking and access and the space was
24 brought up to code for that purpose;
25 told Chair Franzese he perceived that whether that was a
26 good or bad thing was a value judgment she would have to
27 make in terms of how she viewed her community and what
28 land uses she thought were right or wrong in different
29 zoning districts.
30 Werenicz indicated he personally perceived that because Mr. Solie
31 had reported having less vacancies in his property than
32 was the norm, there had been little hardship demonstrated
33 to justify a drastic step like changing the Zoning
34 Ordinance to improve that business.
35 when the Chair said she perceived the Commission was being re-
36 quested to change the Zoning Ordinance to provide a second resi-
37 dence for a caretaker and yet she wasn' t hearing that it was-
38 really going to be for a caretaker, Mr. Solie told her that the
39 only purpose for remodeling the unit would be for use as a second
40 caretaker residence and that his firm would not be renting to the
41 general public now that they had been made aware that doing so
42 would pose a problem for the Ordinance.
43 Commissioner Wingard commented that he understood the Commission
• 44 was only being asked to change the Ordinance to allow two rather
7
1 than the one caretaker residence already allowed in this particular
2 mini-warehouse, which is the only facility of this type in St.
3 Anthony. He indicated it was therefore hard for him to conceive
4 how this would open the City to a deluge of similar requests for
5 other types of buildings. Commissioner Werenicz responded that he
6 agreed with the Chair that the precedent would be established for
7 other types of businesses to ask for similar treatment which would
8 favor their own business.
9 Commissioner Madden pointed out that this particular Ordinance had
10 apparently been on the books for at least nine years. Mr. Childs
11 had confirmed that, in the six years he had been with the City, no
12 business had come in to him to ask for a caretaker residence in
13 their own building because the precedent for doing that had been
14 established with the mini-warehouse facility.
15 The Manager reported he was aware of instances where the code had
16 been enforced and the property owners had not asked to have the
17 Ordinance changed. One of these had been when the proprietor of
18 Craig & Company had rented space in his basement but made the
19 family leave after the City had told him the Ordinance. didn' t
20 permit that. Mr. Childs said staff had also been keeping a close
21 eye on the Northgate Office Park to see unit owners didn' t try to
22 use the space above their offices, which have water and plumbing
23 fixtures. None of these owners had yet asked for an Ordinance
•24 change, he added.
25 Commissioner Werenicz quoted the suggestion Mr. Childs had made in
26 his memorandum that "the major question the Commissioner had to
27 address with the mini-warehouse request was whether a facility this
28 small really needs two on-site resident caretakers" and reiterated
29 that it was his own position that the applicant had failed to
30 demonstrate there was "a real need" for the second residence in
31 this building.
32 Mr. Solie conceded that the caretaker would not normally let
33 tenants into their units after hours, but persisted in. saying this
34 is a 7 day, 16 hour operation, which demanded the presence of
35 someone on the site at all times. He told Commissioner London
36 there is plenty of work to keep that person occupied because with
37 about a 5% turnover every week, the caretaker keeps busy showing
38 the units to new tenants, signing leases and performing other
39 general duties like maintaining the units and collecting the rents
40 and locking and unlocking the units each day. The Chair told him
41 she found those duties to be analogous to the responsibilities of
42 an apartment caretaker.
43 Mr. Childs drew the Commission' s attention to the fact that,
44 although the caretaker unit in the mini-warehouse was a condition-
45 ally permitted use in the current Ordinance, in the event the
46 facility was burned down or otherwise destroyed, the owners would
8
1 have to return to the City for a reviewal of the conditions placed
2 on the permit even though the City could not completely deny the
3 use itself.
4 He also advised that any conditions the Commission might want to
5 place on the permit itself related to parking, access, etc. would
6 have to be added after the Ordinance passes and they get the
7 request back for a hearing on the conditional use permit itself.
8 Commission Action
9 Motion by Wingard, seconded by Madden to recommend the Council
10 grant the request from Ken Solie of Village Properties for an
11 amendment of the language in Section 10, Subdivision 3 , Item 7 of
12 the Zoning Ordinance related to a permitted conditional use in a
13 Light Industrial zoning classification which would allow not more
14 than two dwelling units of not more than 600 square feet and one
15 bedroom for use as a residence for a caretaker for a mini-warehouse
16 facility as a conditional use, where the current Ordinance only
17 allows one caretaking dwelling unit.
18 In recommending the request be granted, the Commission finds that
19 staff had reported receiving no calls either for or against
20 changing the Ordinance and there was no one present at the
21 Commission hearing who expressed opposition to it.
•22 Voting on the motion:
23 Aye: Wingard, Madden
24 Nay: Franzese, London, Werenicz
25 Motion not carried.
26 Commissioner Werenicz advised Mr. Solie that it was quite possible
27 the Council might find differently than the commission when his
28 request is presented to them the following Tuesday and it is their
29 decision which really counts because the Commission is only an
30 advisory body.
31 Commission Split on American Amusement Arcades Request to Operate
32 Amusement Arcade at Apache Plaza
33 At 8: 17 P.M. , the Chair opened the public hearing on the above by
34 reading the notice of the hearing which had been published in the
35 September 2nd, Bulletin and mailed to all property owners of record
36 within 350 feet of the subject property. No one present reported
37 failure to receive the notice or objected to its content.
38 Application: from American Amusement Arcades dba Picadilly Circus
39 850 Decatur Avenue North, Golden Valley, MN for a
•40 Conditional Use Permit to allow operation of an
9
1 Amusement Arcade at Apache Plaza in the space form-
2 erly occupied by the St. Anthony off-sale liquor
3 store. The proposal would utilize the 34 amusement
4 device licenses now held by the Apache owners.
5 Documentation: Application accompanied by August 31st letter from
6 Daniel Heilicher of American Amusement Arcades
7 Company;
8 City Manager ' s September 11th memo giving staff
9 reaction to the request and the issues which are
10 involved;
11 sketch of proposed layout of store.
12 Staff report: Childs reiterated some of the above information,
13 including the fact that the current City Ordinance
14 limits the number of machines to a maximum of 106
15 amusement devices licenses which was the number in
16 effect when the Council established the recreation-
17 al ordinance and still held in St. Anthony;
18 suggested the Commission could recommend a limit on
19 devices this business could have as the licenses
20 became available;
01 indicated no food or beverages would be served in
22 the establishment;
23
24 reiterated that this type of activity is a condi-
25 tionally permitted use for which the Commission can
26 recommend certain conditions which it feels are
27 necessary or desirable.
28
29 reported staff had received no calls or letters
30 against this request.
31 Mr. Childs reported Police Chief Hickerson had been contacted about
32 the request and he paraphrased the Chief ' s memorandum where he
33 indicated he:
34 *would have some concerns about this operation being located
35 right adjacent to the City municipal on-sale liquor store,
36 for which the Manager perceived the concerns would probably
37 be the same if the opposite were true and the bar was being
38 started next to an amusement arcade;
39 *based his concerns on how well the establishment would be
40 operated because if it is well managed, the Chief thought
41 problems with loitering in the hallways and those kinds of
42 problems would be minimized;
10
1 *was concerned there might be problems with liquor procure-
2 ment (Childs said this would not be the same as for a
3 liquor off-sale establishment) ;
4 *thought the extended hours might increase the possibility of
5 disturbances and fights which could add to police calls
6 during their peak call period and could only be prevented by
7 excellent management and strict supervision;
8 *perceived it would only be with this control that drug trans-
9 actions and other type of criminal activities could be
10 avoided.
11 The Manager reported those had been the kind of concerns which had
12 prompted the annual review of the amusement device licenses for the
13 Fun Center ' s operation in the St. Anthony Shopping Center, whose
14 proprietor often appears for those reviewal sessions. Mr. Childs
15 indicated the Police Department considers that to be a well run
16 operation and have reported no major problems down there, although
17 the arcade is also located within 200 or 300 feet of both the on
18 and off sale municipal liquor stores. He added that these facilit-
19 ies probably generated more problems than the Fun Center.
20 The City Manager answered the questions posed by the Commission by:
•21 *telling Chair Franzese he considered it to be more unusual
22 for a municipality to have a limited number of amusement
23 devices licenses available than it was for a city the size
24 of St. Anthony to have two amusement arcades;
25 *saying he thought it may be unusual for a city' s ordinance
26 to require these activities to be handled as conditionally
27 permitted uses, perceiving the applicants may not have had to
28 seek these type of permits in the other cities they serve
29 because amusement arcades are permitted commercial uses in
30 those municipalities;
31 *recalling it had been the possibility of a 24 hour billiard
32 hall with a beer license located in St. Anthony which was one
33 of the concerns which had initiated this zoning classifica-
34 tion for this use;
35 *indicating the opposition which was expressed against the
36 Fun Center at those hearings might have been magnified as an
37 example of what might be coming if the billiard hall went in.
38 Proponents: Daniel Heilicher, Norman Pink, and Gene Winstead of
39 American Amusement Arcades Company
40 Dennis Cavanaugh, President of C. G. Rein Company
041
11
1 Heilicher assured Chair Franzese there was still a
2 lot of interest in video games by both kids and
3 adults;
4 said adults' interest in pool had heightened;
5 reported most of his arcades had come under condi-
6 tional use permits and his firm had never been
7 turned down;
8 invited the Commissioners to check with any of the
9 Police Departments in any of those locations from
10 Brooklyn Park to Robbinsdale, and they would find
11 they had no problems because those activities are
12 under firm control;
13 they have a full time attendant on duty at all
14 times and permit no drinking, smoking or eating on
15 the premises;
16 said there are no tables and no place to sit down
17 except at the sit down games and .no loitering is
18 allowed.
19 Werenicz Casts Doubts on Applicant' s Claims
0
ll The Commissioner, who said he had served on the Hennepin County
22 Sheriff ' s Department for 14 years, said he had contacted all eight
23 communities where Amusement Arcade operates and found there is much
24 disagreement with Mr. Heilicher' s perceptions that his establish-
25 ments have been trouble free. The Commissioner stated he had been
26 told that to alleviate the problem in some of the establishments,
27 the Police Departments have had to assign a full time police
28 officer in those facilities on Friday and Saturday evenings for
29 whatever hours the establishment is open.
30 Mr. Heilicher' s response was that his company had requested the
31 police presence in the Brooklyn Park and Maplewood arcades, which
32 are 22 ,000 and 15 ,000 square feet and in the Har Mar operation
33 because the mall had requested that because of the heavy theater
34 traffic. He told Mr. Childs his company pays to have the police
35 officers on duty and suggested Commissioner Werenicz should talk to
36 the officers who are involved to get a better perspective on the
37 problems.
38 When Commissioner Werenicz told the arcade representative he had
39 found it had been necessary to have police on duty wherever the
40 establishments had extended hours and their St. Anthony request was
41 for the same extended hours, Mr. Heilicher told him if there is a
42 need for police officer in this establishment, they would hire
43 one.
0
12
1 The Commissioner added that he had also learned the establishments
2 had to hire the police because there had been a real need for them.
3 He said the Maplewood police had told him that prior to hiring a
4 police officer, there had been numerous problems in the parking lot
5 which they attributed to the young crowd going into/coming out of
6 the Amusement Arcade establishment in that mall. He said the
7 police reported getting called at least twice a week prior to their
8 off duty officer working in the establishment involving numerous
9 problems with juveniles consuming in public; there were fights , in
10 the parking lot; and consuming on the lot, which the police
11 attributed to arcade customers, most of whom appeared to be
12 transient type kids. Commissioner Werenicz also stated that the
13 establishment was drawing from all over and the police were having
14 all kinds of problems.
15 Mr. Heilicher said they had a police officer on duty at Maplewood
16 from the first day they opened their establishment and a further
17 check would show there were many of the same incidents long before
18 the arcade opened. These are the type of problems all big malls
19 experience, he contended. Commissioner Werenicz told him the
20 type of traffic his business would increase to the mall would
21 generate more of these types of problems.
22 Mr. Heilicher told Commissioner Werenicz the vacant store next to
23 the bar had been the only space the Apache management had offered
24 them for their arcade. Commissioner Werenicz told him he, for
•25 one, was dead set against that location especially with the
26 extended hours beyond the mall' s normal closing. He .also perceived
27 having three pool tables would most likely attract the adult
28 drinking crowd from the bar next door who could be expected to
29 start to hang around the arcade to play pool which the bar doesn't
30 have and to gamble over the pool games, all next to the juveniles
31 who would be playing the video games. The Commissioner said he
32 thought this couldn' t help but lead to all kinds of problems.
33 Mr. Heilicher told him they have pool tables in Maplewood, Har Mar
34 and Brooklyn Park and don' t experience any of the problems the
35 Commissioner was anticipating. He said his people watch the
36 players carefully to see there is no gambling, which is not
37 permitted in the arcades. He told the Commissioner he might have
38 gotten some of his information from an officer in Maplewood who
39 doesn' t like children and had always given his establishment "a
40 bad rap. " When he suggested the Commissioner talk to the police
41 officers who work in his establishments rather than someone on the
42 desk, Commissioner Werenicz indicated his conversations had been
43 with several of the chiefs, investigators, and patrol sergeants, in
44 the eight different departments where the arcades are located.
45 Problems, With Crowds Attracted and Not With Arcade Company' s
46 Management
•
13
• 1 Commissioner Werenicz added that none of the above had faulted
2 Arcade Amusement' s management per se and he was told "you do run a
3 fine business" , but it' s just that type of business which seems to
4 gather certain crowds and the problems associated with those
5 crowds.
6 The Commissioner said to put the crowds of teenagers who would be
7 attracted to this type of business and the problems associated with
8 that right next to the older drinking crowd could lead to nothing
9 but trouble. He asked how Mr. Heilicher was going to prevent the
10 younger customers from asking the bar patrons to get liquor for
11 them from the off-sale store close by.
12 The arcade representative told him "kids are going to get liquor
13 if they want - to no - matter what" and -he -did not perceive this
14 establishment would be contributing any further to that problem.
15 Commissioner Werenicz told him he perceived the arcade would be
16 providing another source for them. Mr. Heilicher reiterated that
17 no other space had been available to them at Apache and said "if
18 you have a problem with Friday and Saturday nights and you want us
19 to close with the mall, we can accommodate that. "
-20 When Commissioner Werenicz told him he perceived the three pool
21 tables would attract more of the long term "hanger outers" , Mr.
22 Heilicher disputed that assumption, saying that had not been a
3 problem in his other establishments and rather, they had senior
24 citizens coming in to play pool in the daytime and fathers and
25 sons have an increased interest in the game since the movie "The
26 Color of Money" had come out. " He said there had been a surge of
27 interest in the game and his place, which is not a bar, has
28 attracted a lot of people to come in and play in the arcades. He
29 perceived these places offered a good place for kids to come and
30 play pool under close supervision.
31 Chair Franzese said she would hate to have her three teenage
32 sons, who just love pool, go to this location, which is right next
33 to the bar, because they wouldn' t be associating with only kids who
34 play the games but people who have been drinking from next door.
35 Mr. Heilicher said he couldn' t see why the bar patrons would want
36 to come in to play pool, but added if they do, they wouldn' t be
37 the only adults in the place because many young adults like to
38 play the more sophisticated games they have in their establish-
39 ments. He said his people maintain "complete control" and he was
40 certain there would be no problems for her boys.
41 The other proponents then spoke and answered questions as follows:
42 Cavanaugh told Commissioner Wingard all the other spots available
43 in Apache were too large for the arcade which only re-
44 quires about 1, 800 square feet;
•
14
1 said he had not seen the proximity of the bar as pos-
t ing a problem for them or they would not have let them
3 have that space;
4 indicated the mall has 24 hour security themselves and he
5 is certain the security people would become very vigilant -
6 to see that there is not a problem;
7 said the bowling alley has 14 video games in its arcade
8 downstairs and also sells 3 . 2 beer and typically the mall
9 has had no major problems with those customers except for
10 some instances where crowds coming out of the common mall
it areas had broken some of the large mall windows;
12 Commissioner Werenicz told Mr. Cavanaugh most of the vandalism and
13 fighting originated with the crowds who hang around the video games
14 that have been available to them in the bowling alley and who flow
15 out into the parking lots where the problems are. He told him this
16 indicates there are problems associated with these types of
17 businesses and this business would be no exception.
18 Cavanaugh said every major mall has problems in the parking lots at
19 night and he wasn' t sure they were connected specifically with
20 amusement arcades, restaurants, or whatever;
W1 pointed out that this use is a permitted conditional use in the
2 City' s Ordinance, leading him to conclude the City couldn' t
23 completely reject the application, but could impose conditions on
24 it.
25 Childs agreed that was the way he read the City Ordinance and
26 indicated he perceived it also gave the City the right to impose
27 reasonable conditions on the permit, which the applicants might
28 or might not agree were reasonable;
29 told the Chair, C. G. Rein controls the 34 licenses this establish-
30 ment would be using, there are somewhere around 14 licenses the
31 bowling alley holds, the City liquor operation has half a dozen,
32 the Fun Center has about 30 and the rest are scattered around
33 town;
34 said 106 was the number of licenses that were in existence when the
35 City passed the Amusement Devices ordinance and the only way a
36 place can get a license is if one of the holders drops its license;
37 he confirmed that Ray Nelson is in line to receive the next
38 several licenses which become available;
39 unless the City changes the Ordinance, the number of licenses
40 which will ever be available will not surpass 106.
•
15
S1 Gene Winstead said he was Operations Manager for American Amusement
2 Arcades;
3 said he was also Vice Chairman of the Bloomington Planning
4 Commission as well as the President of the Bloomington Crime
5 Prevention Association and understood the City' s concerns about car
6 prowls and vandalism in parking lots;
7 said there isn' t a shopping mall in the metropolitan area that
8 doesn' t experience the same type of problems;
9 indicated he didn' t know just how directly these activities were
10 connected to youth activities;
11 said his organization was not so naive as to believe none of the
12 "bad seeds" frequent their establishments or attempt to come in;
13 said they have spent time with managers to identify problems which
14 occur.
15 Werenicz agreed car prowling problems occur where there are large
16 numbers of cars parked in lots and said he perceived that to locate
17 this type of business near the area where large numbers of cars are
18 parked near the access to both the bowling alley and the bar
19 would just be adding a third source of congregation.
&0 Winstead agreed there would be an older crowd frequenting the
21 arcade later at night, but challenged the perception that problems
22 with the congregation could be directly connected to the arcade.
23 Werenicz responded to Mr. Winstead' s statement that in Bloomington
24 the number of car parking problems in parking lots had been cut
25 down by the actions of business crime watch groups by saying he
26 had found through the surveys he had taken of the eight communities
27 where this business had establishments, that the number of instan-
28 ces had been cut down after either those arcades had hired off-duty
29 police or the hours of operation had been reduced to the hours the
30 mall was open;
31 said he had also noted the malls which had kept to the mall hours
32 didn' t seem to have pool tables in them.
33 Winstead pointed out that one of the reasons his company wanted
34 to have pool tables at this location had been because they needed
35 them to fill up the space which resulted from only 34 device
36 licenses being available to them;
37 added that there had been a great resurgence of interest for all
38 ages in pool the past few years;
39 indicated the pool tables would be somewhat smaller than full scale
•40 tables and would be easier for younger children to play.
16
I Norman Pink had been in St. Anthony when the licenses were limited
• 2 to 106 because there were so many applications for arcades in every
3 vacant store, drug store, etc. and the simplest way to control
4 that was rather than to write an ordinance defining them was to
5 limit the control of the arcades by licenses;
6 said his firm had 1, 500 square feet of empty space which could
7 take from 45 to 50 video games to fill up and because there are
8 only 34 licenses available, they need pool tables;
9 indicated if the City wanted to let them have more licenses, they
10 wouldn' t need the pool tables;
11 reiterated that his company had hired the full time police officers
12 who work in their village North and Maplewood establishments the
13 day their arcades opened up and it wasn' t something the municipali-
14 ties had made them do;
15 pointed out that the young people who have the mobility they have
16 nowadays are going to go somewhere because the school system
17 doesn' t require the amount of study they did when he was young;
18 said in reference to parental supervision, he said he 'd rather have
19 his own kids in an arcade where there is good supervision where he
20 would be able to go and would be able to take that child and pick
21 him or her up rather than have that child say "I 'm going out with
22 the kids and will be back at 10 o'clock. " ;
•
23 said his company expects to close the arcade Monday through
24 Thursday at 9: 30 P.M. or whatever time the shopping mall closes;
25 indicated his company had found it would be advantageous to them
26 and also to the young people to give them a supervised place to be
27 up to 12 : 00 o'clock on Friday and Saturday nights;
28 insisted they wouldn' t be looking for the crowd from the Apache
29 Wells bar and would like to have their mall door closed so the
30 only access from the bar to the arcade would be through the outside
31 door;
32 said they would have to decide whether it was practical dollar and
33 cents wise to hire an off-duty policeman and other type of outside
34 supervision and if not monetarily feasible to have someone on duty
35 three hours every Friday and Saturday night, they would close
36 earlier on those nights;
37 pointed out that in the bowling alley the arcade is in close
38 proximity to the beer counter and beer can be brought any place in
39 that room no matter who it is next to;
40 stated he believed it should be left to the parents to decide
41 whether their children are in the arcade after 9: 00 at night;
• 17
• 1 perceived it was up to the City to see that the laws are upheld,
2 but neither they nor the arcade managers should try to control
3 the family situation;
4 told the Commission his company has been in the arcade business
5 since 1957 and most of the arcades around the country are
6 patterned after their Southdale operation, which unfortunately .had_:been
7 replaced with an eye clinic the mall needed in the same space.
8 Werenicz agreed there was no way the arcade management could keep
9 the bar customers from coming in to play pool and said that was why
10 he was suggesting another location would be better.
11 Pink said his firm had 20 years of experience running this type of
12 establishment and controlling the behavior of those who come in and
13 they don' t need the type of customers who aren' t in control of
14 themselves and would make them leave;
15 said American Amusement Arcades wouldn' t be staying open past 9 : 30
16 P.M. if that wasn' t practical because they wouldn' t want to
17 jeopardize their reputation and the other developments they have
18 because of a few customers which might potentially ruin them.
19 Hearing Closed
•20 The Chair closed the hearing at 8 : 57 P.M. for Commission considera-
21 tion of a recommendation to the Council.
22 The following conversations ensued prior to and during the develop-
23 ment of a final recommendation:
24 Werenicz said he didn' t think it would be unreasonable to
25 require the arcade to be open only during mall hours
26 perceiving the precedent had already been set for
27 American Amusement Arcades in Eden Prairie, Ridge-
28 dale Terrace Mall, Har Mar and Northtown to close
29 when the malls close.
30 Cavanaugh pointed out that the Apache Mall is only open from
31 noon to 5 : 30 P.M. Sundays and closes at 5: 30 P.M. on
32 Saturdays;
33 said he perceived those hours would be completely
34 unacceptable to the applicants;
35 pointed out that the City' s lease on the Apache
36 Wells is on a month-to-month basis so it would be
37 unwise to plan around them.
38 Heilicher said their arcades are all located in the interior
039 of those malls and there are no exits available for
40 them to use once the mall is closed;
18
• 1 said he perceived it would be somewhat discriminat-
2 ory for the City to limit his establishment' s hours
3 of operation or types of equipment they used to
4 eliminate pool tables since similar restrictions had
5 never been placed on the Bowling Alley, the re-
6 staurant or the bar in' the same mall;
7
8 indicated there would always be problems with kids
9 in parking lots whether they' re next to shopping
10 centers, a McDonalds or a Burger King;
11 suggested staff check with the Brooklyn Park Police
12 Chief and see if he doesn' t tell them there were
13 just as many of the same type of problems in the
14 parking lots before the American Arcade ever went
15 into the mall;
16 told Commissioner Werenicz the reason some of his
17 other facilities didn' t have pool tables was because
18 . they didn' t have room for them at those locations
19 where they had all the other types of machines
20 they wanted.
21 Childs told the Chair the three pool tables would be coin
22 operated and represented 3 of the 34 licenses C. G.
•23 Rein is prepared to use for this operation.
24 Cavanaugh reported it cost his company $50 a machine to hold
25 the licenses until some merchant used them.
26 Franzese said she would like to see a condition imposed on
27 the permit which would require supervision of the
28 establishment.
29 Heilicher told her on busy days his company has two
30 attendants on duty;
31 insisted his company' s track record for controlling
32 its customers had always been very good and the Com-
33 missioners should have no fears that the pool tables
34 or video games would not be well controlled;
35 suggested that since this is a conditional use per-
36 mit the City should let American handle the arcade
37 the way they had requested and, if after a year or
38 even less, there is a perception that there is
39 a problem "come directly to us and tell us you
40 don' t like the way we ' re operating. "
41 London said he had to agree with Commissioner Werenicz that
42 the hours of operation should be restricted and
043 that there should be no pool tables;
19
1 said he personally felt these amusement arcades were
2 nuisances because they made it difficult for parents
3 to control their children;
4 thought that since the City can' t prevent them from
5 operating in the City, everything possible should be
6 done to make them as inoffensive as possible.
7 Madden commented that he must have had a "misspent" youth
8 because he had always enjoyed playing pool and per-
9 ceived if he were to take his grandson somewhere to
10 play pool, this establishment, where there would be
11 no liquor, would be a better place to play than a
12 bar;
13 said he couldn' t see the harm in having pool games
14 in a game room and wondered if kids didn' t wager on
15 video games as well;
16 perceived pool had been denigrated and said he had
17 a lot more respect for pool than for video games
18 which he couldn' t stand at all.
19 Commission Action
020 Motion by Madden, seconded by Wingard to recommend the City Council
21 grant a conditional use permit to American Amusement Arcades dba
22 Picadilly Circus to allow the operation of an Amusement Arcade at
23 Apache Plaza in the space formerly occupied by the St. Anthony
24 off-sale liquor store and to utilize the 34 amusement devices for
25 which there are licenses available at that location.
26 The Commission further recommends the following conditions be
27 imposed on the permit:
28 *no food or beverages are to be served in the arcade;
29 *the number of amusement devices would be limited to 34 for
30 this establishment;
31 *the permit for this operation would have to be reviewed
32 annually with input from the Police Chief based on statistics
33 on the number and nature of calls his department has to make
34 to this establishment.
35 In recommending this permit be granted, the Planning Commission
36 finds staff had reported receiving no calls against the permit
37 prior to the Commission hearing and no one spoke against it during
38 the hearing.
39Before the vote was taken on the motion, the following amendments
4W0 were offered:
20
• 1 Motion by Wingard, seconded by London to amend the motion to limit
2 the hours of operation for the Amusement Arcade to the same hours
3 as Apache Plaza Mall.
4 Voting on the motion:
5 Aye: Wingard, London, Werenicz
6
7 Nay: Madden, Franzese
8 Motion to amend carried.
9 Motion by Madden, seconded by Franzese to amend the motion to allow
10 the arcade to stay open until 9: 00 P.M. seven days a week.
11 Voting on the motion:
12 Aye: Madden, Franzese
13 Nay: Werenicz, Wingard, London
14 Motion not carried.
15 Motion by Werenicz, seconded by London to amend the motion to allow
16 no pool tables in the American Amusement Arcade.
•17 Voting on the motion:
18 Aye: Werenicz, London
19 Nay: Madden, Franzese, Wingard
20 Motion not carried.
21
22 Voting on the amended motion:
23 Aye: Franzese, Wingard
24 Nay: Werenicz
25 Abstention: Madden, London
26 Amended motion carried.
27 Commission Indicates No Objection to Change in Nativity Church
28 Plans
29 Mr. Childs had distributed copies of the September 13th letter from
30 the Nativity Building Committee Chairman seeking approval for the
31 substitution of landscaping for fencing between the church' s
32 property and the property at 2921 - 33rd Avenue N.E. , which had
•33 been agreed to by both parties. The Manager indicated he would
21
• 1 report that the Commission members would not be opposed to having a
2 landscaped buffer between the properties or to revising the
3 screening plan which had been approved November 26 , 1987.
4 Manager Reports City Has Picked the P. J. Gaughan Company to
5 Construct the Final Phases of the Kenzie Terrace Redevelopment
6 Project
7 Mr. Childs reported the above to the Commissioners and described
8 the project for which a Redevelopers Agreement is now being
9 negotiated with the contractor. He indicated the H.R.A. hopes to
10 approve the agreement at their October 13th meeting and gave a
11 tentative timetable for getting the project completed, which
12 included the negotiations with the land owner and meeting with the
13 neighbors to address some of their concerns about the project.
14 Joint Council/School Board Meeting Gave Both Sides Better Under-
15 standing of the Parkview Issue
16 Commission members who had attended the September 9th meeting
17 agreed with the above assessment by the City Manager who said he
18 expected no immediate decisions to be made.
19 Marks and Makowske Will Have Opponents and the Mayor Will Be
20 Unopposed for the November 3rd Election
•21 Mr. Childs said Al Arens and Tom Gould had filed to run against the
22 incumbents for seats on the Council.
23 Delays on Stonehouse Addition Discussed
24 Problems with getting the structural steel for the project were
25 part of the trouble, Mr. Childs said, but the contractor had also
26 been slow in getting shop drawings done as well. However, the
27 Manager indicated he had been assured the project would move right
28 along for the next 30 days.
29 ADJOURNMENT
30 Motion by Madden, seconded by London to adjourn the meeting at 9: 55
31 P.M.
32 Motion carried unanimously.
33 Respectfully submitted,
34 Helen Crowe, Secretary
35 :cjk
36
37
38
09
22