HomeMy WebLinkAboutPL MINUTES 11191991 Meeting Sheet
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Box: 19
Folder: PL MINUTES AND AGENDAS 1991
Document: PL MINUTES 11191991
1 CITY OF ST. ANTHONY
002 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES
3 NOVEMBER 19, 1991
4
5
6 I . CALL TO ORDER/PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
7
8 The meeting was called to order at 7 :30 p .m. with the Pledge of
9 Allegiance led by Chairman Madden.
10
11 II. ROLL CALL
12
13 Commissioners present : Chairman Madden and Commissioners
14 Faust, Gondorchin, Murphy, Werenicz,
15 Brownell
16
17 Commissioners absent : Franzese
18
19 Staff present : Management Assistant Dave Urbia
20
21 III . APPROVAL OF MINUTES
22
23 The September 17, 1991 Commission minutes had been approved
24 during their October 15, 1992 meeting . The October 15 and
25 November 19 , 1991 minutes will be considered at the
26 Commission' s next meeting .
7
8 IV. DESIGNATION OF COMMISSION REPRESENTATIVE TO DECEMBER 10, 1991
29 COUNCIL MEETING
30
31 Commissioner Faust will represent the Planning Commission at
32 the Council ' s December 10 , 1991 meeting .
33
34 V. PUBLIC HEARINGS
35
36 A. J.C. PENNEY COMPANY REQUEST FOR APACHE PLAZA SIGN VARIANCE
37
38 The Notice of Hearing which had been published in the November
39 6 Bulletin was read aloud by Chairman Madden. No one present
40 reported failure to receive the notice or objected to its
41 content.
42
43 Staff Report
44
45 The Commissioners asked questions related to the staff
46 recommendations in the agenda packet with the first question
47 having to do with who the actual applicant was . Dennis D.
48 Cavanaugh, President of C.G. Rein, Managing Partners of Apache
49 Plaza, indicated J.C. Penney' s was applying for the sign
50 variance to have their store name, . added to the Apache Plaza
51 Shopping Center pylon along with Herbergers .
0
Planning Commission Page 2
1 Chairman Madden responded to the Management Assistant ' s
� 2 contention that Penneys had a unique regional focus requiring
3 additional visibility at Apache by reporting that Commissioner
4 Franzese had called him that evening requesting he ask Mr.
5 Urbia whether it wasn' t possible that another major tenant or
6 potential tenant might make the same claim. Commissioner
7 Franzese had suggested the size of the Penneys store might make
8 a better argument .
9
10 Commissioner Werenicz indicated he had a problem with staff
11 recommending the variance be granted based on a hardship, which
12 the Commissioner had interpreted to be primarily caused by bad
13 economic times, a hardship which would not be acceptable under
14 statutory definition. He also wondered why, if the Penneys '
15 store has such poor visibility, its management had not insisted
16 the Penney name be included on the shopping center pylon at the
17 same time Herbergers ' sign was erected in 1987 . The
18 Commissioner added that the minutes for the hearing on the
19 Herbergers variance contained testimony from Mr . Cavanaugh that
20 he saw no problem with Penney' s visibility because the store
21 could be seen by southbound traffic. The Rein Company
22 executive had even written the May 26, 1987 letter included in
23 the agenda packet, promising not to erect additional tenant
24 signs on the pylon during the term of Herbergers ' lease.
25
26 The public hearing was opened at 7; 39 p.m.
7
8 Rick Palamateer of the Universal Sign Company showed a colored
29 rendering of the pylon sign as it would look after the addition
30 of the proposed brown and white J.C. Penney signs above the
31 Herbergers ' signs, which he indicated, would remain the same.
32 The sign company representative said the only portion of the
33 Penny signs which would be illuminated would be the white
34 lettering . The distance between the Herbergers ' signs and the
35 reader boards would remain about 12 inches . Inconsistencies
36 between the sketch in the agenda packet, Mr. Palamateer ' s
37 rendering, and the existing signage were pointed out .
38
39 Mr. Cavanaugh showed the interior layout of the stores in the
40 mall in relation to Silver Lake Road and Stinson Boulevard. He
41 said Herbergers had no visibility at all from Silver Lake 'Road
42 and Penneys could only be seen by southbound traffic . Neither
43 could be seen from Stinson. Mr . Cavanaugh said the Penney
44 store had 57, 000 square feet; Herbergers 53 , 000, and the empty
45 space where Country Club had been was 24 , 000 square feet . The
46 Apache Manager then reported there is a theater company
47 negotiating to use the latter space which would require a
48 marquee for which the City Sign Ordinance makes no provision.
49
50 Mr. Cavanaugh' s explanation of why he was asking for a variance
51 from both his 1987 letter and the Penney' s signage was because
52 "things change. " He said Herbergers reluctance to sign a
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1 lease without better visibility was the reason the first sign
102 was added to the pylon in 1987 and now J.C. Penney' s lease is
13 up and the store management believes that because of the market
4 conditions within the general retail community of St . Anthony,
5 Rosedale and Columbia Heights they need more exposure along
6 Silver Lake Road.
7
8 Kenneth A. Sundvall, manager of the Apache J.C. Penney store,
9 said he had only been at Apache for a year and a half, although
10 he had been with Penneys for many, many years . It was his
11 contention that anything which dealt with the retail business
12 had to come down to economics in the long run. He told the
13 Commissioners of his lunch that afternoon with Ron Herges, the
14 manager of Herbergers and president of the Apache Merchants
15 Association, who had told him only a previous commitment he
16 could not break, would prevent him from attending the hearing
17 that evening to support the addition of Penney signage to his
18 own store' s identification on the shopping center pylon. Mr.
19 Sundvall said if it had been the other way around, he would
20 have welcomed Herbergers ' signage on the same sign as Penneys
21 because that would give more credibility and drawing power to
22 the center .
23
24 The Penney store manager contended that unless persons passing
25 by on Silver Lake Road had resided in the area for a number of
26 years it could well be that they might not even know there was
7 a Penneys in the shopping center . He said he had been made
8 aware of this by customers who just happened to drop by who
29 said as much to his clerks . Mr . sundvall argued further that
30 almost all neighborhood shopping centers like Har Mar and
31 Knollwood have the major stores in their centers listed on
32 their center signs . Even larger centers concentrate on major
33 retailers in their center in their advertising because they
34 know they help to draw the traffic to those centers .
35
36 Mr. Sundvall viewed Apache as more of a neighborhood than a
37 regional center. He said demographics indicated the trade area
38 to be relatively compact and to reach farther to the north than
39 the east where the competition is greater. He added that the
40 size of the competing dales also resulted in the shoppers
41 viewing Apache as a neighborhood center. Mr. Sundvall reported
42 the Apache Merchants Association had been reactivated to
43 promote the center with a calendar for 1992 already scheduled
44 to expand on collective efforts of the merchants to draw more
45 customers and get more involved with community activities .
46 Among these were the Special Olympics this summer, the Columbus
47 Day events and a shopping spree night which had to be
48 rescheduled because of the blizzard.
49
50 When Commissioner Werenicz inquired why Apache was never
51 identified in the regional or national J.C. Penney advertising,
52 the store manager told him that was a corporate decision which
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Planning Commission Page 4
1 neighborhood stores are trying to change. The Commissioner
2 responded by saying he thought concentrating on expanding the
3 market area by advertising would be much more productive than
4 just putting up a sign at one location. Mr. Sundvall agreed
5 that individualized advertising combined with better training
6 and customer relations was needed with better signage to reach
7 out to new customers .
8
9 Mr . Sundvall couldn' t give any details of the lease extension
10 saying that was being negotiated by Penney' s real estate
11 division. He said Penneys is not planning on expanding its
12 space in the center at this time. When asked how the rest of
13 the center retailers viewed the proposed signage, Mr. Sundvall
14 said the Merchants Association have said they need Penneys to
15 help them build traffic the same as most centers who rely on
16 major stores to draw traffic for the smaller stores . The store
17 manager said one of the concerns of his company and Mr .
18 Cavanaugh himself was the health of Apache Plaza. The
19 Merchants Association is responding to that concern by working
20 with the new leasing agent and suggesting a merchandise mix
21 which is a vital element of any shopping center .
22
23 The public hearing was closed at 8 : 12 p.m. for discussion and
24 recommendation from the Commission.
25
26 Commissioner Brownell stated that he had no problem with having
7the Penneys sign on the center pylon if its well done. He did
8 not believe it would be a detriment to the City but perceived
29 it would not only be an asset for Penneys but for the other
30 Apache retailers as well because it would aid in drawing
31 traffic into the center . However, like Commissioner Werenicz,
32 he said he was having a problem with the hardship issue without
33 bringing economics into the consideration. The Commissioner
34 indicated he was having a problem understanding how Penneys
35 which had been in the same location in the center for over
36 thirty years was all of the sudden perceiving an exposure
37 problem. On the other hand, Commissioner Brownell agreed the
38 store' s location made it difficult to work with as far as the
39 ordinance goes because of its distance from a major
40 thoroughfare and its location in the mall .
41
42 Commissioner Faust indicated he perceived everything boiled
43 down to economics in the business sector and wondered how
44 economic restrictions could be applied to something which is
45 inherently based on economics . He contended that the hardship
46 would probably be greater for the community than for the
47 applicant if the center doesn' t succeed. The Commissioner
48 stated that the visibility and vitality of St . Anthony should
49 be his greatest concern and he said he believed Apache to be
50 the cohesive which would hold the vitality together .
51 Commissioner Faust reported reading reports indicating traffic
52 on Silver Lake Road had doubled in the last ten years so he had
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1 no problem believing there were people who drive by Apache
2 every day who don' t know there is a J.C. Penney store in the
3 center. The Commissioner pointed to the areas north of the
4 center which have experienced the greatest growth, towards
5 which the sign would be directed. Commissioner Faust said he
6 therefore didn' t see the semantics of hardship as a deterrent
7 to granting this variance.
8
9 Commissioner Werenicz read aloud some of the directions he had
10 received at training sessions for new Planning Commissioners .
11 One of these was that "economic considerations alone shall not
12 constitute undue hardship if reasonable use of the property
13 exists under terms of the ordinance. " Commissioner Faust
14 responded that the center is zoned commercial and, obviously,
15 with its vacancies,, is not being utilized to its maximum. He
16 suggested that would perhaps allow some leeway in interpreting
17 the definition. Commissioner Werenicz wondered if the fact
18 that the center is not fully utilized was the fault of the
19 ordinance rather than the marketing or failure to sit down and
20 determine what the best use of the property might be. He was
21 concerned that Carlson Hardware would be next in a succession
22 of other retailers in the center who would claim need for more
23 exposure through signage not to mention the proposed theater or
24 whatever else might go into the vacant grocery store space on
25 the same side of the center. He added that he foresaw that
26 future tenants who might want to consolidate space left vacant
7 by business failures would certainly also be looking for better
8 identification.
6*29
30 Commissioner Faust said he was very offended by th C.G. Rein
31 letter in the agenda packet which he perceived to be
32 meaningless ; without validity, and not able to withstand any
33 type of scrutiny because of the writer 's inability to predict
34 the future.
35
36 Commissioner Murphy wondered whether the Commission had
37 considered the possibility of the need for additional signage
38 for Apache Plaza should a renaissance of business occur in the
39 center.
40
41 Commissioner Gondorchin indicated he also found it hard to find
42 for granting a variance in terms of economic hardship. He said
43 it would be a lot easier if the Planning Commission were
44 looking at a comprehensive sign plan for Apache Plaza .
45 However, he agreed it was not uncommon for shopping centers to
46 have major anchors listed on the shopping center pylons . The
47 Commissioner said he would also find the application easier to
48 deal with if the request had not been to add 1990 ' s signage to
49 a 1960 ' s style pylon. He was also concerned that the
50 Commission might be setting a precedent for every sizable
51 retailer whose lease is expiring to be coming in with a similar
52 signage request as part of that negotiation.
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1 Chairman Madden said he perceived that times had changed and
2 the City is now looking at a lower tax base at Apache along
3 with a high rate of vacancies which, in turn, boils down to
4 economics and the survival of Apache. He was also concerned
5 about establishing a precedent or basing approval on Mr .
6 Cavanaugh' s credibility which he perceived had been badly
7 damaged by reversal of his 1987 letter. The Commission Chair
8 said he perceived a comprehensive sign plan from Apache ' s
9 management might be an excellent approach to the City and the
10 Planning Commission.
11
12 Commission Recommendations
13
14 Motion by Brownell, seconded by Faust, to recommend the City
15 Council grant -the request for a sign variance from the J.C.
16 Penney Company for two, 5 foot, 9 inch by 20 foot, J.C. Penney
17 signs to be mounted on the existing Apache Plaza Shopping
18 Center freestanding sign located on Silver Lake Road. Said
19 signs are to be located as proposed below the existing Apache
20 Plaza lettering and above the two Herbergers ' signs of the same
21 size. In recommending approval of the variance, the Planning
22 Commission finds the application meets the three tests
23 established by Minnesota statute and that no one appeared at
24 the hearing or contacted staff before the hearing, to speak
25 against the variance.
26
6*7 Voting on the motion:
8
29 Aye: Brownell, Faust, Gondorchin, Madden.
'30
31 Nay: Werenicz, Murphy.
32
33 Motion carried.
34
35 Commissioner Murphy commented that he wouldn't expect anything
36 to be done about a comprehensive .sign plan until the next time
37 someone comes asking for further signage. Commissioner
38 Brownell agreed saying he was certain that as soon as a major
39 tenant went into the vacant space on the southwest corner of
40 the mall, the owners would be in for better identification.
41 However, he reminded the other Commissioners , that was not what
42 they had been requested to consider at this time. The
43 Commissioner added that the City is now developing a new Sign
44 Ordinance. He wondered if it might be possible to address
45 regional shopping centers and come up with a comprehensive plan
46 for signage for such a development . He perceived the ordinance
47 could apply to Apache and any other regional center which falls
48 under the same classification, taking a different approach than
49 in the past .
50
51 Commissioner Werenicz responded by pointing out that whatever
52 the City does about the pylon now would be grandfathered in in
�3 any event.
Planning Commission Page 7
1 Commissioner Faust suggested the Commission might want to
2 recommend that the Council and particularly Councilmember
3 Wagner, who is working with the Merchants Association and C.G.
4 Rein, should sit down with those parties and try to implement
5 some of the Planning Commission concerns and suggestions into
6 future planning for the center .
7
8 Mr . Cavanaugh was asked about the signage which he was
9 proposing for the theater. He said he had talked to the City
10 Manager about that eventually as well as a comprehensive sign
11 plan for Apache. The center manager admitted such a plan was
12 long overdue and said he would be all for it to avoid future
13 situations like the one he is in because the only vehicle for
14 getting signage is a variance at this time. He reminded the
15 Commissioners they were all dealing with a 30 year old center
16 and a center sign which is almost as old. In reference to the
17 proposed marquee, Mr. Cavanaugh said he would expect the sign
18 would have to be a modified pylon more like a large monument
19 sign. It would have to be freestanding on Silver Lake Road and
20 large enough to feature titles of movies which could be read
21 from all directions . Since the City Sign Ordinance has no
22 provision for a marquee at this time, marquees would probably
23 have to be addressed in a sign plan for the center, with which,
24 he said he would be willing to cooperate.
25
26 Commission Recommendations
7
8 Motion by Brownell, seconded by Gondorchin, to recommend the
29 Council initiate the development of a comprehensive sign plan
30 with the C.G. Rein Company and the Apache Merchants Association
31 for Apache Plaza .
32
33 During the discussion which preceded the vote on the motion,
34 Commissioner Werenicz questioned how a sign plan could be
35 developed for a shopping center for which there was no
36 assurance of who the tenants would be. He said he perceived
37 the City had gotten a lot of misdirection from Apache
38 management as to where they wanted to go.
39
40 Commissioner Murphy agreed developing a plan would be very
41 difficult with the current situation, but he perceived it would
42 be better to at least look for some consistencies in sign
43 styles and sizes .
44
45 Commissioner Faust indicated he thought the Commission was only
46 trying to foster some cardinal direction. He said he was
47 certain the Merchants Association who have become more
48 proactive, if they perceived they had more input, would come up
49 with something to help the Commission act on eliminating the
50 hodge podge, hit or miss, planning in existence now. The
51 Commissioner said the City is now being forced to react to
52 exceptions rather than planning .
Planning Commission Page 8
1 Commissioner Faust added that he perceived Councilmember Wagner
2 who had also served so astutely on the Planning Commission, as
3 serving as the "point man" for moving the plan along .
4
5 Chairman Madden said he reviewed the idea of another monument
6 sign on Silver Lake Road as just a bandaid where a whole new
7 program is called for.
8
9 The motion carried without dissent.
10
11 GAS STATION PYLON AND COMPREHENSIVE SIGN FOR STOP-N-SHOP
12 SUPERETTE AT 3813 STINSON BOULEVARD.
13
14 The notice .of the hearing which had been published in the
15 November 6 Bulletin was read aloud by Chairman Madden. No one
16 present reported failure to receive the notice or objected to
17 its content .
18
19 Staff Report
20
21 When Chairman Madden mentioned that these applicants had sat
22 for almost an hour waiting for their hearing, Mr. Urbia agreed
23 that future hearings should be scheduled further apart .
24
25 The Management Assistant then reported the applicants had been
26 cooperative about working with staff to bring their request
7 more closely into conformance with the City Sign Ordinances .
8 He then reviewed the assessment he had made of the proposal in
29 the agenda packet including research on the Amoco signage at
30 the corner of 37th and Silver Lake Road.
31
32 In reference to clearance under the sign there was agreement
33 that even if the City built a walkway past the center, it would
34 have to be built within the right-of-way which should not
35 impact on the clearance. During the applicant ' s testimony, the
36 Commission was told the old pole had been removed and
37 landscaping including rock and bushes to prevent anyone walking
38 under the sign, had been completed.
39
40 Commissioner Brownell reported that he had researched all the
41 City ordinances to be certain the proposed signage met all
42 requirements . When he came to the description of a shopping
43 center he found that in 1989 the City had adopted a new
44 definition under which this 7, 700 square foot building could
45 not qualify as a shopping center for which the City Ordinance
46 sets a minimum of 18, 000 square feet . Mr . Urbia indicated he
47 had failed to do the same research before advising the
48 Commission that the sign denoted as Design B in the Plan was
49 allowable.
50
51 Chairman Madden said he perceived there was nothing to put on
52 the monument sign at the present and suggested it could be
3 excluded from Commission recommendations .
Planning Commission Page 9
1 The Chairman also noted the sign sketches which had been
2 submitted by the applicants, had not been drawn to scale. He
3 said the letters on the building itself appeared to be two feet
4 high which, as compared to the signage on the St . Anthony
5 Shopping Center, was too high.
6
7 The public hearing was opened at 9 : 09 p.m.
8
9 Bill Vogt, 1847 Johnson Street, and James L. Sarna who had
10 signed the Petition for Sign Variance, were present to speak to
11 that request . Mr. Vogt indicated they had followed the advice
12 given them at the August 20 meeting to scale down the size of
13 the signs for their proposal . He said he has two stores in
14 Northeast Minneapolis with signs considerably larger . The
15 applicant commented that "without getting up in a skyhook" it
16 was impossible to tell just what size the Amoco sign really
17 was . However, he said he thought the Commissioners would be
18 quite surprised at how much sign surface there really is with
19 all the additions which have been made to the sign, piece by
20 piece, including the price, identification, and food signs .
21
22 The applicant said his concern was not how all the signage came
23 about . However, he said he saw more justification for a little
24 strip mall which is hidden, which was built in 1989 and failed.
25 . As proof of the center ' s lack of visibility, Mr . Vogt said the
26 first time he had drivalup there he had passed by without even
27 seeing the center at all . The developer reported the 1930/1940
8 style driveways which presented a hazard had, with the consent
29 of the City, been enlarged. The next step is to get some help
30 from the Planning Commission to sign the property properly so
31 the mall can be seen more easily. The only reason for the
32 monument sign would be to let people know what is there. Mr .
33 Vogt indicated they had half the store space rented and were
34 only concerned the weather would close in on them before they
35 got in the footings for the signs .
36
37 When Mr . Vogt said he intended to use uniform lettering to
38 identify the tenants but the use of logos might depend on who
39 they were. Commissioner Brownell told him each store frontage
40 would be allocated two feet of signage per linear foot they
41 occupy in the center . He said whether they are backlighted and
42 the color should have been indicated on the sign plan. When he
43 asked whether Mr. Vogt intended to put up signage on the north
44 side of the building, the applicant said the signage would be
45 on the facia on the front of the building which would not be
46 continued around the sides .
47
48 Mr. Vogt told Commissioner Gondorchin his only timetable was
49 getting his footings into the ground before winter set in.
50
51 The public hearing was closed at 9 : 18 p.m, for discussion and
52 development of a Commission recommendation to the Council .
Planning Commission Page 10
1 Commissioner Werenicz commended the applicants for trying to
2 put together a comprehensive sign plan based on input from the
3 Commissioners related to a shopping center. He apologized for
4 the Commission not checking the square footage of- building for
5 comparison with what the ordinance required for such a center.
6 The Commissioner recalled that a new ordinance had been written
7 at the time the mall on 39th Avenue N.E. , with a Domino ' s Pizza
8 in it, had been built in 1989 before the building they were
9 discussing that evening was erected. Commissioner Werenicz
10 said he perceived the size of that building might have prompted
11 the square footage minimum requirement in that ordinance.
12
13 Commissioner Brownell indicated that ordinance had been modeled
14 after ordinances he had brought in from Apple Valley, Chaska
15 and Roseville. Concerns at that time about having large
16 buildings which were not on contiguous tracks of land or less
17 than four stores in a grouping were also considered for that
18 ordinance.
19
20 The Commissioner reiterated that he had no problem with the
21 sign proposed in Detail B because he perceived the way it is
22 designed and the overall sign plan seemed to fit the site well
23 and should enhance the property. However, there is no other
24 allowance anywhere in the existing ordinance which permits a
25 pylon sign for anything other than a gas . station. The sign
26 couldn' t be allowed as a monument sign because, until the new
sign ordinance is adopted, that type of signage is only allowed
608 in areas zoned light industrial .
29
30- ..._._ .
31 Chairman Madden told Mr. Vogt that in spite of how sorry the
32 Commission was for not picking up on the problem with the
33 square footage last August, the existing ordinances prevented
34 them from acting on the comprehensive sign plan at this time.
35 He said even if a new ordinance were written to address the
36 reality of smaller strip malls, it probably could not be
37 adopted before winter sets in.
38
39 Mr . Urbia apologized for not catching the error himself . He
40 assured the applicants that staff would be diligently exploring
41 any options before the Commission recommendations are presented
42 to the Council December 10 .
43
44 Commission Recommendations
45
46 Motion by Brownell, seconded by Murphy to recommend City
47 Council approval of the variance request for the pylon sign
48 allowed by the City Sign Ordinance to a gas station under
49 Section 430 : 40, Subdivision B2, finding that the request meets
50 the three statutory requirements and no appeared to speak
51 against the variance.
52
�3 Motion carried unanimously.
Planning Commission Page 11
1 Motion by Madden, seconded by Werenicz to recommend the City
2 Council address in the new Sign Ordinance shopping centers
3 smaller than 18, 000 square feet which are not addressed in the
4 draft of the ordinance being reviewed at this time.
5
6 VI. MISCELLANEOUS
7
8 Chairman Madden thanked the other Commissioners for the
9 privilege of serving as their chairman for the last three
10 years . He said he wanted to continue his service on the
11 Commission but perceived it was time to give someone else the
12 opportunity to assume the chairmanship. Commissioner Faust
13 expressed the gratitude of the Commission for the architectural
14 expertise and even-handedness Chairman Madden had brought to
15 the position. It was determined that parliamentary procedure
16 called for the election of anew chairman at the start of the
17 first Commission meeting in January.
18
19 Mr. U.'-.rbia said he knew of no planning requests which had to be
20 taken care of in December and promised, if there were none, to
21 let the Commissioners know whether any seats on the Commission
22 needed to filled before January.
23
24 Commissioner Werenicz asked about the ruling in the .Per_ no . _
25 litigation saying he thought such information was necessary for
26 making a determination in similar cases in the future.
27
8 VII . ADJOURNMENT
0029
30 Motion by Werenicz, seconded by Murphy to adjourn the meeting
31 at 10 : 00 p.m.
32
33 Motion carried unanimously.
34
35
36 Respectfully submitted,
37
38
39
40
41 Helen Crowe, Acting Secretary