HomeMy WebLinkAbout1975.12.03 PC Minutes MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS
OF THE JOINT HUGO PLANNING COMMISSION
CITY COUNCIL MEETING
DECEMBER 3, 1975
The Special meeting was called to order by Chairman Spitzer at
8:10PM. Planning Commission members present were: Spitzer, Ehret ,
Peloquin, Rosenquist and Peltier. Leroux arrived at 8 :50PM. City
Council members in attendance were : Lease, Leroux and Smith. Also
attending were Planner Carl Dale, City Engineer Howard Kuuis ist o,
Washington County Planner Bill Schwab, and Charles Johnson, City
Attorney.
Chairman Spitzer explained that the purpose of this meeting is to
get some interpretations of what our policies will be in the future
road developments in the rural areas; to obtain the consensus of opin-
i on from all in a t t enda nc a on three matters :
1) Policy regarding future road development in rural areas
2) Clarification of density zoning in the mai areas
3) Policy regarding blacktop roads
Bill Schwab said one of the most seriousroblems i- cul de sacs ,
,
or dead end roads, such a s those that have been n encountered in projects
such as Jerry Moe 's or Mog rens , where the roadway is in excess of 600'
long. The subdivision ordinance was designed to handle urban type
developments. In rural situations, roadways ending in cul de sacs that
are 800' or more long, have presented no problems. If
a developer comes
in with a 80 acre parcel or better, forty acres wide and a half mile
deep, calling for ten or twenty acre lots , a good w ay to plat is to put
the road down the middle with the road dead ending at the end, but if
the road is one-fourth or one-half mile long, or longer, the developer
must provide an easement for an outlet so that eventually the road can
continue. The ordinance gives the council the power to start at that
-2-
point . Basically this means providing a feasible outlet to an adjoining
property so that at some future date the road can be continued.
Schwab further stated that in regards to blacktop, the Subdivision
Ordinance provides that gravel roads may be permitted where the lots are
four acres or larger in size and have at least 300' frontage. No way can
a person afford to put black top streets in ten acre lots, he said.
He said that density zoning is sometimes confused with cluster dev-
elopment. In Cluster development , in a forty acre tract , 8 or 10 lots
may be allowed, by ordinance , with the lot sizes only two or three acres ,
but the balance of the land is not used for homes but would be dedicated
to the development for common use inside the development.
Using Jerry Moe 's 95i acres as an example, he explained that with a
ten acre minimum, by code, the land can support a given number of lots.
The sub-divider can get these lots easily enough, but it might not be
in the best interest of the land to have exact same sized lots. Other-
wise, if the developer looks at the soil conditions , the topographical
features of the land, etc. , and has a different plan that does not exceed
the density, he can ask for that approval; that is , he might have two or
three lots of fifteen or twenty acres but some may be as small as five
acres but through the whole project, it doesn't have more than a given
number of lots.
Chairman Spitzer stated that these are the three issues to be re-
solved at this meeting. The Planning Commission will do as the Council
so desires , but wishes to know the Council's policies oto that develop-
ment can take pla c* in the city of Hugo. He asked for comments first on
treatment of future road development in the agricultural area. Lease
commented that he is concerned with problems of driving safety equipment
_3_
' int. areas that are serviced with a dead-end road, or road over 600'
long ending with a cul de sac. How far should this equipment be driven
' in, before it can be brought back out again?
Carl Dale said he agreed with Schwab 's basic position that the 600
foot rule was developed for urban type situations.. He said that in a
rural situation, a strict interpretation was not fair. He said he felt
Schwab 's approach in recognizing that it might be an acceptable short-
term position to have a road over 600' long as long as someday there
will be another way to get access to these homes. It is difficult to
make a hard and fast rule unless it is the policy of the community to
discourage development as some communities are actually trying to do.
We should be reasonable and there should be some flexibility, he said.
Spitzer asked if it would be reasonable that in a rural ere., that
we could define an acceptable cul de sac in terms of the number of home-
sites
ome-
sites to be served by i t. Carl Dale answered yea.
Charlie Johnson said that there is a provision in the ordinance for
longer cul de sacs if they are temporary in nature..:. _ The ordinance Comm-
ittee is at the present time looking at the whold subdivision ordinance ,
he said. One way, from a legal standpoint , he further stated, would be
to generate an overall road plan. If someone comes in with a 40 or a
80 and wants to run a road from here to there; if there is an overall
road plan, it is much easier to make meaningful decisions , he said.
Charlie Johnson said the road plan is something that would have to
be worked on, then hearings held and then it would be adopted. He said
long roads ending in cul de sans should be of a -telstively temporary
nature, and temporary can be just what the council defines as temporary.
He said we should also be concerned with how the proposed osed development
p p p
might affect the adjacent land owners.
• Kuusisto said that besides having a g o od road, and even if the cul
de sac is temporary, we should also be concerned with the ability to
maintain these roads.
Spitzer said that if -we had a road plan, we could then demand cer-
tain easements.
Kuuisisto felt more easements should be asked for on boundary lines.
He said they can alwayp be given back, but if they are not asked for at
the time of development, they cannot be asked for later; they then have
to be purchased.
Lease said that if these mai de sac roads are to, at a future date,
be connected, thus carryingmore traffic, it would be necessaryto improve
p
our road standards. He asked bac fast do we want to develop these rural
areas?
Spitzer asked if .mei refused. a subdivision request because it appears
that further development adjoining the property would not take place for
say, fifty years, would we be liable for a lawsuit. Johnson said that as
soon as you start treating different areas that arezoned the same , diff-
erently, there will be problems .
As a general rule, stated Dale, a road should loop in and back out
if possible. In Rome instances , because of the physical characteristics
of the land this is not possible. In some of these cases, even two lots
would require a long cul de sac road to use the land reasonably, and in
these cases , there is no alternative but to use a cul de sac road.
Kuuisisto asked if we should consider a better road then. Dale
fitiiiteddtitat in many rural situations, the loop road is possible. Owner-
ship A
and the physical chars,cteristics would have to be taken into con-
sideration.
Johnson said it is imperative to treat people as equally as possible.
If there are no guidelines set up, it is particularity hard to do. these
Y _
t
' .., , . . - . '...5- -'
de t e rmin •,�on
at• e. w ou :be: ' s i et..
:,'t o matte if t he re was• an .overall road •
•
•
•
.
•
.lam• •
•
.•rhret. aitkeid t .thing - e*ae nt to an adjoining. property owner's
• • b Donde >� � t• �.., � < � • .: • •
:01 e4 ,; .-Carl -Dale-•. replied that re ui re meet
type. is >a- .•too*Qn pi**t1*e• ••?- '. mares communities. H.e further .stated
that some .43 t unit:ae.. t' are 4•' lilt 1.4a$ -.4, round.• each ard every lot.
wide •eno h t--1...'-'1ilitl)ti.. ..� r 0 ',-��!1 �,�.�� ��:,• c.fie ..dri-` bs�s k.. _.
.'
:
� , � future-.as •.6 ••�.f,; r � • e1� ,
s.�
fit''.
rd
roe e � 60o, � � ' �`� ,t�e • �t�3� de :e:��. �ob.lem
i�• 'ir,.- iir41,:.1‘.-:,*,...4.
' rF�`q..E�..•. , ��` y - z _ �.• .t. •tom .r Schwa �r ., •rb stet-ed fit. .:: *.
b Dondebs%W4etbjtyt
ry�•, the- r • ',� � .�rnd t e�x'l. de sac could..not •
exceed 600' . � ; •� � ��} t� Y�.�, • .
Me. . a .i' ;•tie ..or •a oul�ri•'t e f a to get
a. volved with the ••- lap •.3:7 ,• ''� �'
Jim •Leroux' as M •.1 jtt'�'sp •,,,...0.:..N..,,......t.,.. tda: a. me t- of rid. s Tatem t o
tie •
in all.'th•e .•,w.#idi roff!48,;;,t.•.-Troki=. ' 014 bis,
t btuiIt
•
Spitzer .aafd� ,�`
.S •
t % • �t
1) There i illItalie. ty9-;" s e sidelines we will have. to work
';'.:. -' ' with .in pre pa ring for ,t he : t'tut When•11O• consider development in a ;
..: - large portion of •.arid,t. %e e1-t• .i...',,.::_i'iz i.o• see that -the roads can be built • .
without a cul de• sae, X f ..o 113
:1e T . notpossible , then long •
y.. , de sacs May b e •
.a one i Vie, d• �:• i'oyi4e4�y ..sement :can also be shown that
at sometime in the futu.' e" e d
,; ' d. . road can b e continued ince d t h rou
.:
� .; the property. It would ..hav.e.r ti.:•o .b e . •
designed by the city a ineer t o
r
• ,, handle the traffic. A. road de vel o. .p m.ont. pwithin. the ' cityshould be
plan
J
•
worked out as soon as pos,s •
b.i; .
•2 ) Density Zoning - Definedby
b Schwab as follows • • The develop-
,
.
,
ment
eveto -
ment of a particular parcel of land within a zoning district in such
a manner that the total -number of
dwellingspermitted en a parcel are
�
•
in conformance on the average,
Charlie Johnson asked if :-H o'a ordinance allowed this type of
� yP
_6_
zoning. Schwab stated that only under a PUD, Hugo's Hu o's ordinance
permit such zoning. There was some discussion concerning PUD's and
Carl Dale said that the more common conception of a PUD is in a more
urban situation but they could be utilized in the rural situation.
Schwab said that when talking density, we should also be considering
g
how large the largest lot should be and how small the smallest one
should be.
Lease expressed concern that in Jerry Moe's case, where he was
asking for a.:rezo ijg from Conservancy to Agricultural, Which is ten
acre lot minimum and then was asking to have ten lots in only 95* acres
He stated he wasn't even sure they should be changing his land from
Conservancy to Agricultural, Carl Dale agreed thathe would have to
have some pretty strong arguments to ask for 10 lots in. .95i acres.
Spitzer stated that our present zoning doesn't permit either cluster
or density zoning unless it is under the PUD phase of the ordinance.
Leroux said he didn't feel a PUD should be in a rural area. Irene
Leroux said she felt it could be used in the Agricultural area if the
�1'
building sit are big enough.
Council agreed with Spitzer that the only way density zoning could
be considered was under the PUD, and the Planning Commission should
view future applications of this type as being acceptable.
accs table.
It was the conoensue of the group that Jerry Moe has two alter-
natives. He can either have uniform lot sizes that meet the zoning
requirements or apply for a PUD.
Spitzer suggested that perhaps the ordinance should be amended to
include density zoning.
3) It was the c oncensus of the groupthat hard surfaced roads are
a
requirement of the city, except where lot sizes are four acres or over,
_7_
and 'that the lot sizes have at least 300' frontage. Kuuisisto says
the ordinance calls for blacktop and it is necessary to pbtain a var-
iance otherwise on the larger lots.
The meeting adjourned at 10:36PM.
(777
- ?,
Mary ane Babcock, Secretary
Hugo Planning Commission